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i am fond of finding discussions on lj through my site referalls. here's an interesting one about the zine (including my response).

sometimes i kinda wish my peer circle was more diverse so i could get all these diverse opinions on things. but then i guess the people i disagree with wouldn't really be in my peer circle.

erm.

there was an electrical fire in the house this morning, in the roof, that turned out to be in the heating duct. so we have no heating now, until monday when someone can come and look at it. I'M COLD.

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you know, who fucking cares? so you want to make a zine. why the fuck do people need to waste their goddamn lives in front of a computer screen composing lengthy nitpicking essays about it?

enjoy your zine. those who don't can fuck themselves, without the lubrication of your $16 porn.

If zines are anything like the papers I worked for in college and university, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and a good deal of art as well. I don't think people appreciate it.

There's someting wonderfully intimate about having a book or other printed text with you. I'm sure I'm not alone in prefering a zine or book with me while I wait in line rather than a computer screen.

Go you! <------ Token late 80s/early 90s phrase

((Hope))

but yes, the majority of them are the 'acclaimed' authors from the 'golden generation' - and there's a reason that they actually form that generation, it's because they are actually good.

Even the ones who weren't asked to participate. Sorry, but I'm having trouble feeling sentimental and nostalgic over the zine for that reason, and I can't really sympathize with your troubles in getting people to turn things in on time, since I would have.

And it's your zine, you can do whatever you like with it. But if you're going to put it forth as a record of sorts of what Lotrips was/is, and what makes it good, then I'll have to respectfully disagree that that's what you're producing. I've contributed a lot to this fandom since it was born, and yes, it rankles that anyone from the "outside" picking up a copy of the zine would have no idea, none, who Azrhiaz is or what she writes.

Again, you can do what you like, but call a spade a spade. It's not a Lotrips representational document, it's a compilation of your favorite authors and your friends. I think it's clear that it is going to be hobbit-centric, which is also fine, if that's what you want, but you've overlooked many of the great "manly men" writers as well-- further evidence that it is not representational of Lotrips as a whole.

There. I got it off my chest.

But if you're going to put it forth as a record of sorts of what Lotrips was/is, and what makes it good, then I'll have to respectfully disagree that that's what you're producing. ... call a spade a spade. It's not a Lotrips representational document, it's a compilation of your favorite authors and your friends.

but that was the whole point of that response to

azure819's post. it's *not* a record of what Lotrips (with a capital L) 'was/is'. it's a subjective collection that *does* reflect my taste, of course, but my taste wasn't the sole measure of what i included. and why the hell would i want to produce a volume for people of things i like when i could just start a goddamn recs page? because i'd been around this (rather huge) corner of fandom long enough to know that my tastes were shared with a whole bunch of people, and hey, i really like the idea of a zine, wouldn't it be cool if i could make one? like i said in that comment, i chose to invite those acclaimed authors, not just 'my favourite authors and friends'. a bunch of the authors who i invited and who are contributing i normally wouldn't even read, who i don't even know personally, but i know they are acclaimed and celebrated and often recced in fandom at the time i started putting it together.

the concept of putting together a 'Lotrips representational document' is utterly mind-boggling. i'm not pretending that there aren't areas of fandom that i've never even heard of, and i'm definitely not suggesting that my taste in fic is exactly the same as everyone else's - or worse, that mine's the only 'good' taste, and anyone else who likes anything else has no taste. nonetheless, i knew the audience i was aiming for with the zine, and i felt i knew their tastes. that was another reason i didn't open the submissions up to the general public - i knew then that there were people i would have to turn down, and i hated the idea of doing that, because i know that the people submitting would be submitting because they thought their stories were 'zine-worthy' (and i'm aware that sounds pretentious, but let me continue), and there would be a bunch of people who thought those authors were also 'zine-worthy', but they just wouldn't be the kind of authors or stories i was looking for, and they wouldn't appeal to the audience i am trying to appeal to. to create a 'Lotrips representational document' about which no one would complain that the editor was being pretentious would mean publishing every single lotrips story ever posted anywhere. and that in itself would be incredibly problematic.

(cont)

which brings me to... I think it's clear that it is going to be hobbit-centric, which is also fine, if that's what you want, but you've overlooked many of the great "manly men" writers as well

my original intention was for it *not* to be hobbit-centric. i invited quite a large number of people to contribute, but also had to limit myself because it was just impractical to try and publish something with 50+ stories in it. of course i started with the people i know, and the people i know to be good, and of course coincidentally a lot of them were hobbit-centric authors because i'm most active in the hobbit-centric corner of fandom (just as your invite-only Valentines challenge was just about exclusively man/elijah written by *your* friends). but i also did a lot of research into contributors. i didn't just go "hey, lets reinforce this clique in a hard-copy circle jerk!", i wanted to make the zine accessable to as many fandom participants as possible. i invited several of the acclaimed "manly men" writers to contribute, and many of the not man-exclusive authors i invited weren't hobbit-exclusive either. so if all my original plans came to fruition, there would be quite a variety of pairings and characters represented in the zine, which was, in itself, a snapshot of my experience of fandom at this precise moment (an experience which i know is shared pretty similarly with a whole bunch of people). a year book of one year level of one school out of a country with thousands of schools, each with years and years of history of their own.

but unfortunately a whole lot of people pulled out of contributing, and unfortunately most of them were the 'manly man' writers. and the rest of the (mostly not hobbit-exclusive) contributors went with writing what they were most interested in and comfortable with writing at that time, which is chiefly hobbit- (and orlando-) centric. it's not something i'm particularly happy with, but yeah, it does reflect the state of things as this is being created, which *is* something i'm happy with. i would have liked more variety, but it does represent the state of this particular facet of fandom at this particular time.

and that's what this zine is about. i'm not claiming it's the be-all and end-all and summation of the entire fandom. this is me having a bit of fun and feeling like other people would like to share the fun. if a publishing house published a collection of romantic stories, would the entire literate world complain because they are suggesting that the only genre of writing allowed is romance? would they be outraged because they assumed that the styles of writing and authors in that volume meant that every other style and author not included was *bad*? even if that publisher claims that it's 'the ultimate romance anthology', i think the general public would realise that the publisher is advertising something for a select audience that they know will enjoy the volume.

and someone has to make the decisions, and of course that someone, anyone, is going to be subjective. even the accept-all automated archives online are subjective. but i wouldn't have even started this if i wasn't confident in the fact that my target audience (which is quite large, and not just my 'clique') and my contributors have enough faith in me to deliver something they like, which is essentially my goal. to have fun in this incredibly complex project and produce something i'm happy with, and that i can make a whole lot of other people happy with. not an umbrella ruling that casts the writing in this massive fandom in shades of black and white.

well, i will enjoy it, and if that wasn't my original drive to starting it in the first place, i, um... wouldn't have started it in the first place.

i think no matter what you do, if you're offering it to everyone, some people are going to be pissed off. and if you don't offer it to everyone, the same people will be pissed off anyway.

i know people will love it, and it's not like i'm robbing the people who don't want it. they don't have to buy it.

there is a lot of work (more than i anticipted!), and the novelty of a zine is the point of it. it's not like i'm trying to make people stop reading stories on their computers and read them in hard copies, but it has sentimental (and yeah, novelty) value for the people who like that kind of stuff. i know zines don't have the same function as they used to, and it's not like i'm trying to 'bring back the old days'.

Since you mention it, the Valentines challenge was meant to be an exchange that would be fun and would help make up for the people who were disappointed in this year's Slasha-- several never got their fics. People requested what they wanted, and then got paired with people who I felt could write what was desired. I didn't request, single out, or in any other way "lean" on hobbit/man RPS pairings.
They turned out how they turned out-- which, in fact, included some really good manly-men fics.

but unfortunately a whole lot of people pulled out of contributing, and unfortunately most of them were the 'manly man' writers. and the rest of the (mostly not hobbit-exclusive) contributors went with writing what they were most interested in and comfortable with writing at that time, which is chiefly hobbit- (and orlando-) centric. it's not something i'm particularly happy with, but yeah, it does reflect the state of things as this is being created, which *is* something i'm happy with. i would have liked more variety, but it does represent the state of this particular facet of fandom at this particular time.

Well, I'm sorry they pulled out, then. But the whole point, without getting utterly wanktastic about it, is that a) I wouldn't have pulled out, b) I do think I qualified as a longstanding fandom author, c) I feel that I could have produced something that your "large target audience" would have enjoyed, and d) it hurt my feelings terribly not to be invited, especially since you *have* at some points intimated that it is composed of the best Lotrips authors.

Plain truth, and not requiring a thesis. My feelings were hurt, and I finally quit biting my tongue about it. It was hard to, considering my friendslist seems to mention the zine rather frequently. I hope you have fun with it, and I hope everyone else does, too. I'm afraid I won't.

but in choosing contributors to invite, i wasn't looking at "longstanding fandom authors" to the fandom as a reason to invite. and i also wasn't solely looking at "what *i* liked and thus assumed everyone else would" - because i am a fan of your work, and i do recognise your lengthy contribution to fandom.

to tell you the truth, i did consider inviting you, but there are many, many wonderful writers in fandom, and unfortunately (yet again) the majority of people who agreed to contribute didn't tell me that they'd decided to pull out until past the deadline, when it was too late to fairly ask my second-round options. as i said, there are a lot of people in fandom who are excellent writers; my list of contributors didn't contain all of them by a long shot. i am a fan of your stuff, but despite your lengthy participation in fandom, i haven't seen your name gracing many of the recs lists, journals, etc, within which i researched for those who were most "acclaimed".

i'm sorry if it came across that i was saying they were the 'best' fandom writers - because that's not really my decision or declaration to make. of course i think they're excellent, otherwise i wouldn't have invited them, and i don't mean to hurt or offend people by seemingly overly praising them to the exclusion of others, but most of my fandom time in the past 6 months has been dedicated towards hand-feeding them praise and encouraging them as much as i can. and i'm pleased with the results, so of course i'm going to be excited about them. but their good-ness doesn't mean that no-one else is good.

like i said - someone has to make the decisions, and with so much diversity, of course not all of them are going to be popular. some people are going to be disappointed, and hurt, and angry, but i still stand by my belief that it would have been more worse for more people to have to turn down so many people if i'd opened it up for submissions. i had even asked the contributors to keep down their discussion of it in their own ljs from the very beginning, to avoid situations like this where people i was unable to invite feel so hard-done-by and excluded.

i'm sorry if this has turned into a 'thesis' again, but i suppose my response to your first comment wouldn't have been so long if i hadn't thought you were attacking the decisions i've made and making me feel like i have to defend and explain myself. i understand you're upset and i'm sorry that you feel that way, but i'm afraid it's something that just can't be avoided. like i've said many times in the past few hours - this is something that i've created with as much objectivity as i can safely inject into it. you're welcome to create your own zine that represents your take on things, that could no doubt contain a whole different collection of just as 'deserving' authors.

Hope won't say it because she's a better person than I am, but I will tell you what everyone reading this will have to think.

You are being extremely ungracious and juvenile.

So you weren't picked. It's possible that you're not as good as you think you are. It's also possible, as Hope has explained so politely, that she couldn't include everyone for the obvious reasons of time and money.

Get over it. Prove everyone wrong by writing a fic so good they'll have to show you acclaim. The only thing whining will bring you is a few moments of mockery.

Ah, were I not half a world away, I'd be helping you with layout and design and such and actually using those skills I picked up at universtiy. :-)

There is an audience and a need for zines - not everyone is online, and it's a traditional instrument of fandom. One of the first desktop publishing projects I ever did was the local Dr. Who newsletter, which, while not a zine, was similar in intent. I wonder what ever happened to the Whovians .....

Actually, in an attempt to, as you so charmingly put it, "get over it", I was being candid with Hope about the fact that my feelings were hurt. No one's perfect, and it did sting. I saw no point in continuing to sit on my thoughts if it was only going to lead to ill-feelings. Having discussed it with her was illuminating, and now I have a better idea of what precisely she was looking for in regards to the zine. Further, I have no resentment towards Hope. It's unfortunate that you think that the discussion (which had nothing to do with you, and was already resolved, as far as I was concerned) makes me "ungracious and juvenile", but then again, I don't care what you think.

It's possible that you're not as good as you think you are.

I'll do, thanks.

Prove everyone wrong by writing a fic so good they'll have to show you acclaim.

No one has to do anything of the sort, and acclaim is given to crap all the time. Merit and acclaim do not necessarily go hand in hand. Which is not to say that my writing has merit, only that your logic is faulty.

Thanks for your time, though.

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