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Unpopular fannish opinions re: CoE
- I do not think this season *made* Jack into a monster. I think what this season did was dial up all the little bits of character and story that were in the "scifi MOTW tv show" to eleven. I think Jack has *always* had shady morals. In S1&2 we've already seen him--on screen--sacrifice children, kill team members, be extremely violent and scary, etc. I have massive issues with the unrelenting torment Jack was put through in these five eps, but don't have issues with his characterisation.
- Same for Ianto. The lie about his father enriched rather than betrayed his characterisation for me. It ties in to that post I made about Jack and Ianto being similar, as does his interactions with Jack at the start of 3.04-- Ianto's conviction that Jack is not just a shallow surface, that there is more to him, because there's more to *Ianto*. Ianto has worked hard to build his facade, he *knows* it's a facade (and yes, I think "I tell you everything" in this context means that Jack knows, to an extent, that it's a facade for Ianto).
( But, oh my god, still trying not to think too hard about Ianto's final words as it fucking KILLS ME, OK. I know that many people think that was a terrible bit of writing, but being really fucking invested in these characters I was too preoccupied to analyse it from any sort of distance. It worked for me, painfully so, and I think the performances are what tipped it over to making it work. I am not going to be able to watch that episode again for a while, I think.)
I am not leaving fandom, no. I *need* this fandom. What has been so gutting about this season is that I have become so invested. Torchwood fandom, and this pairing, have played a huge part in helping me get through uprooting and being on the other side of the world for the past six months. And I'm not ready to let them go yet. But canon is done for me, I think.
When I started watching CoE, I was struggling to remind myself that this was in fact canon - not just another spinoff that I could take or leave. I had consumed 1&2 long after they'd aired, they felt self-contained in their own way. So now I'm oscillating between considering S3 just that - a spinoff, or a really well-crafted fanwork; and considering S3 to be the end of the *series*. Because that's seriously what it feels like, to me, and it makes it easier to bear. I'm just filled with rage and frustration at Ianto's fate because his arc was just ruthlessly chopped off. If that's done to tie up a story in a show that's been cancelled, I'm still upset but not as enraged. But the thought that Torchwood is going on without Ianto when his arc is no where near done - that pisses me off.
On plus side, I really am feeling the urge to write fix it fic, now. As S3 was airing I felt totally on hold for fannish expression, and then after ep 4 everything smarted far too much to look at. But now I am feeling like I want to heal things, even if it's through my thoroughly jossed curtainfic. Happy endings all around now, please!
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Oh my god, yes, THIS.
Although I am feeling curiously hollow and done with the show for other reasons. I think RTD may have managed to kill it for me.
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I am feeling absolutely done with Rusty and not very hopeful about the rest of Ten's Who as well. I get the feeling that Jack in DW is just going to make my head explode with rage.
So, yeah, with you on the "way to fuck up the whole franchise, Rusty" front.
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Glad I'm not the only one in that boat, though.
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He can also say 'it doesn't matter because in 2 million years it won't make a difference.' I think people sometimes forget that Jack's morals aren't, and can't be, the same as the mortal humans he lives and works with. Maybe they *should* be, but that's a choice Jack has to make (and will, I think, if he really is Face of Boe and goes on to save New New York in the DW ep Gridlock.) But Jack's most recent history, as of CoE, is of a conman who used to be 'the go to guy' for torture who has suffered a lot of trauma and and loss and is looking forward to only ever losing those he lets himself love.
As for Ianto - well, duh, Ianto lied about stuff. But his lies were never for mean intent; they were either for love (Lisa) or to make himself into something he needed people to believe, or maybe just... to be the sort of person he thought Jack needed. His life really was about Jack - his servant, his lover, and he clearly wished he could be Jack's equal but I doubt Ianto ever felt like he was. But 'entertain Jack' was definitely a role he played, and telling stories about himself could have fit into that. Jack told wild, crazy stories all the time and they may or may not have been true. But perhaps Ianto simply wished to make himself into a little more, to attract and keep Jack's attention in comparison to other people Jack knew and loved.
And heck, maybe Ianto's father had the skill to be a master tailor and was frustrated by having a simple job. Ianto is awesome - I bet his ability to be awesome was inherited.
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On reflection, I think that contrasting dynamic is the most compelling, adept bit of characterisation for Jack-the-problematic-antihero.
I just hate that he's constantly punished for it. I mean, I suppose it makes sense - Jack's morals are out of place in the context of this century/society, so of course he won't be rewarded for them.
I don't think Ianto's lies are all about Jack, necessarily - mainly because I reckon they probably started when Ianto went to London the first time - leaving what he obviously was unhappy with behind and rebuilding himself into something he thought would be more rewarding or appealing to others. I do think that by the time he met Jack their similarities in this is what made them gel together so well. It would have been like positive reinforcement, for him, to find someone who operated the same way he did, and also to love and be loved even knowing it was a facade etc.
Hmm.
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:-)
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And Ianto made sense, the fact that he's always had the facade, always had this carefully put together persona, and I liked his sister and hr family and they genuinely did add more depth to his character. And yes, of course he'd want to know Jack beneath the surface, because he doesn't believe what's on the surface is genuine for anybody. For him, the surface is all constructed, maybe.
But Jack... you know, I think the thing with Jack is that he has accumulated. He's lived so much, done so many things, that the person he is at any one time has to be... oh, I'm going to have trouble explaining this. But the surface is who he is, because you can't be [everything he ever was]. It's too much. It's multiple lives.
Which is like the doctor, except the Doctor does get to regenerate-- does get to take in those centuries, absorb them and be reborn with that processed and part of him, part of his past. But Jack doesn't regenerate, Jack is a fixed point, so he just has all that stuff accumulates. What he is on the surface is who he is, because there's so much underneath that is contradictory or obsolete in who he is now, or repressed, or sheltered, or forgotten.
And the Doctor is from a race that was meant to live as long -longer- than he has, that was built for it. Jack's human and was built for the one life only.
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Like, the whole conversation about Ianto wanting to know why Jack hadn't told him *this* before was partly about that relationship dynamic of Jack being secretive etc. But I also think that the audience/fans tends to forget just how much more *we* know about Jack than the other characters in the show do. At that point - Ianto asking why Jack hadn't told him - for me the answer was more about Jack having done so much stuff - and so much bad stuff - that a) it's impossible to tell someone all of it and b) jack would need to do some serious compartmentalising just in order to function.
You're right - he has more than a lifetime of stuff to form a his character that others will know and relate to. I think he's obviously still trying to find the point where he can have relationships with other humans without hiding behind a surface or trying to make that surface all there is. Yeah, very different from the Doctor, who is able to distance himself as the Lonely God, pick up and leave people, remove himself entirely, run away and regenerate etc.
/ramble.
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Objectively....CoE is very good. If you look at it from the PoV of someone who just walked in and started watching from Day One.....that person would think it was good. In fact, I told my brother to watch it.
It is however very heart breaking for the old fans. For me personally it didn't feel like Torchwood. I felt like I was watching a different show...HBO's OZ or something...I get that they were making it darker...but well, I don't think that's for me. At least not as far as Torchwood is concerned. James Moran has written that they are concerned with the story and not with fulfilling our expectations and well....right now it feels callous considering how invested we all are in Torchwood....and in Ianto (I watched all of s1 and s2 for him, I'm not a big fan of the show per say)..but well thats what they really care about.
Ianto's death hurts because of the pointlessness. I feel angered because to me his death was a plot device, a way to invoke emotion with no point and no purpose. They may not have intended to hurt us, but they can't deny that they knew we would be hurt.....it's obvious....Ianto is the fandom favourite.
Episode 5 felt a tad melodramatic to me. Alice Carter really broke me though. There will be an s4....but I doubt it'll be any good. A whole new team? I don't think it'll hold our interest in the same way.
The Ianto bit made me go wtf. I thought it was a disturbing touch. Interesting but disturbing. Just shows that Ianto had so many layers left...things we didn't know...which was exactly why I loved him, you could never be certain with him. *tries not to cry*
I feel done with fandom because I honestly can't read fic anymore. It's too painful.....I keep remembering that he's dead and it just destroys me. Which is sad because I really loved this fandom and did want to be a part of it. I can I'm very sure only write missing moments fic, and not fix it or post s3.
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This is exactly what I wanted to say.
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And likewise Ianto. And likewise the frustration with his character arc -- god, there was so much we never knew about him, and now that's it. Oh man.
Write fix-it fic! Join the crusade! I'm going to be starting up a proper community project along those lines soon.
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I do very much suggest you watch TW, Vissy. I think you'd like it a lot.
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Wow, first off that didn't work for me at all. I guess the time to get invested in the characters was just cut far too short (and ugly). Plus that whole weighing the numbers thing made me sick to my heart and sick to my stomach.
Though Torchwood does a good sight better with women than Supernatural, but let's not get started there, shall we?
I also went 'where is Toshiko' (that was her name, right?) for quite a while there. And that other dude. The doctor. O.o The other doctor. The one working at Torchwood at early season 1 at least.
I agree, that Ianto seems like a character who was cheated out off a decent story arc here. Man, that must have been *horrible* for everyone of you being so invested in the characters. Did you know? Were there rumors? Or didn't you see it coming at all and just got kicked square in the face with it? 'S not right.
I'll take that fixit-story though *nodnod*. If it is tender. This lacked tenderness. I think. Or for whatever reason, it's what I find myself craving now, at any rate.
About that 'is Jack a monster' thing - I obviously don't have all that background knowledge, but what he seemed to me at least in this small chapter, was very much not human, but not any better either. I thought he'd be more *fun*. You know, that whole Cowboy riding off into the sunset (or night sky as it were) thing - it didn't feel right. He felt all wrong. But then, that was likely the point, eh?
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What I loved about the first few episodes of this season was that it dove right in with the assumption that you did already know the characters etc... What that turned into in the last couple, of course, was that the people who did know and love were heartbroken while newbies just saw good tv.
Yeah, I think you've got it right - the overall point of this is to make Jack suffer, endlessly.
That said, if you're interested in the characters at all and don't mind cheesy scifi, watch the other seasons :D
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I keep trying to think if the story would've worked without Ianto's death. i think it did serve the story, becasue having seen how that devastated Jack, we then know that sacrificing his grandson is not something which will leave him unaffected. Given the revelations about Jack's actions in 1965, i think some evnet was eneded for us to see the loving, compassionate side of Jack. Maybe in a full season, other things coulve done this, but i think here it had to be the loss of either Ianto or Gwen. And I think fandom has shown that we felt the loss of Ianto more keenly.
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