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i went upstairs to bed but sleep was elusive, so i came back down here until my brain stops running around in circles and flops down in exhaustion instead.

right, so, you lot can be my test audience.

ZINES. liek.

i've been reading lots of articles on fan culture and fanwriting and slash for my essay, and pretty much all of them written back in the ~~good~~ old days before the internet had secured its stranglehold on geeks around the globe, so they're all talking about zines and how cool they are and stuff. which. made me go: "haha, you don't have livejournal and we do," but it also made me want to make a zine myself. now, i am well aware of the fact that zines, in their traditional role, are (as

mcee pointed out) somewhat obsolete, but i am somewhat endeared to the idea of a lotrips zine for its retro charm and guilty pleasure. plus, i like to make work for myself. i love the idea of recruiting authors, making people write, betaing and editing their fics, putting it all together, making it look pretty and sharing it with the world.

then there's the issue of what it would have in it - i bandied around the idea of focussing it strictly on a pairing (my thoughts drooled along the lines of dombillijah), but then that would be too specialised - probably not enough people would want to buy it to make it worthwhile. and fanart as well? probably not. fanart isn't really such a huge thing in rps ~~(thank fucking god)~~, and i think less people are interested in it anyway. no, what i wanted was an sordid volume of juicy, quality, yet-unpublished porn. so, i had established that i wanted ~~porn, and lots of it~~ quality porn from quality writers, with a variety of characters and pairings that could satisfy more than one subgroup on my flist. in a tastefully presented volume. that i could stroke with devious glee.

so how would i choose what would go in it or not? how would i recruit authors? i was reluctant to put out a call on a high-traffic list or community as, lets face it, most of the things posted to the high traffic places are not what i would call 'quality'. so i would prefer to ask writers to contribute. which brings up issues of taste and whatnot, but hey. what can you do? i consider myself to have good taste, and adequate intellectual functions to define what i think is 'good', and fuck youse all, it is my zine and i'm not publishing crap. so. i would like to choose which writers i would like in the zine (perhaps with suggestions from others, heh), which made me think: hey. it will pretty much be a dombillijah.com production, why not get my hostees to write something? like, each of my hostees? there's around 25+ of them now, that could work (what do you say, my beloveds?). 25 quality stories, around 1000 (preferably 1000++) words each, unpublished online, well edited and presented in one tasteful volume.

and while we're on that topic, (i thought, as i was in the shower,) why not make it liek, a dombillijah.com (/rosiesamfrodo.com) fundraiser type thing. obviously i wouldn't be wanting to make a profit from it, so the 'retail' cost of the zine would cover basically postage and production. dombillijah.com costs a certain amount each year to run, which isn't ludicrously high, but is still almost unaffordable to impoverished students such as ourselves. the tip jar has been successful enough to allow us to purchase a year's worth of space for dombillijah in itself (not sharing with rsf.com any more), but it is an ongoing cost. why not have it so like, a dollar or two from the price of the zine went to the coffers for the upkeep of our beloved ~~empires~~ domains?

so anyway. then i decided to make a poll in order to ascertain if anyone would be interested in a zine in the first place, which has so far suggested that yes, people would be interested though i suspect that when it comes to the crunch of clicking on that link on their flist that says "buy this zine!", most will not follow through, but someone also brought up the issue of defamation.

i don't believe there's been a real person fic zine published; it's beyond common knowledge that there are fictional people zines around, and have been since before mullets were really, really cool. obviously the production companies know about them, and overlook them, for whatever reason. but real people zines?

jedinic was adamantly against the idea, saying that if one of the actors got their hands on a lotrips zine, hell would be to pay in the form of a defamation case. do you think that's possible? it would be distributed, not-for-profit, along the private rather than public lines of communication, and not in any way marketed as truth to anyone, let alone anyone that could do some damage with it.

thoughts? knowledge? opinions? suggestions? ideas? on defamation and everything that came above it ~~including the icon omg wtf his little FACE~~ would be extremely welcome. cmon people! discuss! if you managed to read this far.

thanks.

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hm. well, i'm an ignorant med student and therefore know nothing about legalities, but! i have to say... surely, surely rpf has been published before. maybe not rps, exactly, but rpf - beatles fan fiction and the like has been around forever, and at least some of it would have been published in zine (if not book) form. so there's a kind of precedent. and i'd think, if you were to publicise a lotrips zine mainly by word-of-mouth, that you'd only get interested parties hearing about it. there may still be a risk, and it may not be technically legal, but a small operation like that should slip under the radar. (so long as no one goes shoving copies for autographing in the actors' faces at conventions.)

my $0.02, anyway. i'd buy one.

so long as no one goes shoving copies for autographing in the actors' faces at conventions.

nngah. can you say "worst nightmare"?

and hmm, yeah, beatles fic. thanks for the $0.02 *deposits in moneybox*

I love the idea itself, and the intentions are good, but I just don't know that it's realistic. Zines are kind of a dying art, in general, because people don't want to pay for what they can essentially get for free, and while I don't know that there would be defamation lawsuits, I'm not sure I'd want something like that bound and published just waiting to fall into the actors' hands. Plus, the moment you do start charging even fifty cents over the cost of making the thing, no matter what the costs go toward, that's a profit. I don't know if the rules are different in Australia and therefore you would be exempt, and although I do admit that the feeling of bound material in your hand, and even more so the satisfaction of seeing your work in print is an amazing feeling, the overly cautious Hobbit in me just isn't certain it's a good idea. :( Sorry to be so negative.

negative is good too! I WANT ALL OPINIONS! especially at this stage, when everything is all fluid and i-don't-know-how-if-or-when-i'm-doing-it. thankyou.

I've worked on several zines in the good old punk rock underground fashion, and so I really wouldn't be too concerned about RPF when I know that people get away with writing treatises on killing George W. Bush all the time. Your mission is to keep this underground, I guess.

That said, I'm not going to buy it simply because I don't have a credit card, and for no other reason, so don't take my opinion as worth anything, babe.

It's also essentially up to you. In all honesty, RPS on the net, in your case, is scarier because they can trace your website address back to you, whereas how the fuck are they going to trace some pieces of paper signed with pseudonyms?

i think a case can be made for risk of "defamation", but personally i like to live dangerously. if you do do it, i'm all for it (do i count as a hostee? even though i don't have a proper lotr site on dbl/rsf?). (so, how smutty?)

PS: it should be called fuck youse all.

1) i was counting on you counting as a hostee.
2) AS SMUTTY AS ~~HUMANLY~~ FICTIONALLY POSSIBLE.
3) bwa.

*reads other responses*

if you decide against this idea, you know what would be cool? an online zine. ahahaha! totally meta.

</DORK>

...

or i could just print out a bunch of fics, staple them together and mail them to you.

or to save time, just put them online and...

wait.

That's not totally meta-- or well, it is, but it's also a good idea. I have dipped into very geeky places where, say, coders gather to make 'art' - it's called demo-making, I'm sort of part of a group doing that (small executables that produce moving images and music when you run them on a computer, yes i know like this it sounds lame but it's a thing, okay) - and these people have online zines, also executables. It's not a website, though there's a website too, but you have to download each issue and 'watch' and browse it, it's like a mini CDrom application, if you will, with articles and graphics and sounds and contributions from the world over, liek. There's an editor/publisher behind it, with editorial choices made and all.

I've been thinking for a while that something like this in the world of fanfic would be nifty.

And while I'm here let me answer the original question (though i haven't voted yet):

I'm all for it, little profit included. In my LJ memories (they're a mess but) there's a section keywroded 'legal' with links to entries where people have discussed various fanfic / fandom issues, and I seem to remember I've seen a few times knowledgeable people explaining that in a lot of ways, RPF is more legal than FPF, since there are no trademarks on real people. Sure, they have a right to their image and stuff, but as long as you label it clearly as fiction, you're not even half as bad as sleazy tabloïds spreading unfounded rumors-- arguments like that.

Onviously I do not know how solid your case would be, but I think you can find an answer out there, and checking my memories might be a good start, er.

I'm all for it in ANY case, cos I'm unresonable like that, and cos I'd love it, and would gladly pay for it, and think it'd easily stay under the radar of the bad PR sharks heheh.

And I'm not bitter at all to not be one of your hostees, nono. is bettah anyway cos i never finish what i start and deadlines type things are bad for my health

(but in an online zine we could also have audioporn, think of that!)

*makes time to record the end*

i actually considered the cdrom idea - even just an audio cd, because dude, *audiopron* heheh. i still do like the idea of a cdrom to send out, but hmm. having something printed would be rather cool.

hmm.

heh, good ideas can be stored up. We (you, whoever wants, I dunno) can do both. liek.

Zines are COOL, yo.

Personally, I don't see the harm in publishing an RPS zine. I know zines are a 'dying art', but I think it'd be worth it to just have that solid in your hand.

I also don't see how they could nail you for 'defamation'. I suppose there is always the remote possibility of someone with the dreaded POWER finding the zine, but seeing as this is a word of mouth type of thing and not broadcasted (and I trust that those who hear about it word of mouth won't shove one under their noses), the possibility seems remote.

I would also recommend not focusing on a single pair. It's too restricting and will make less people want it ~~not including me~~. Many are too close to their OTP at times, if you ask me.

Oh, the hostees writing? I like that, your hostees are very good. If they (for some ungodly reason) don't want to, you could also simply drop a ~~note~~ e-mail to your favorite writers and see if they'd participate.

Anyway, to the entire point of the post, I'll buy it!!! O.O

i suppose the word-of-mouth thing would be alright. lotrips is such a huge fandom, it makes me nervous.

and i hear ya about the single pair... though most of my hostees focus on a certain group of characters. maybe i'll cast my nets farther abroad as well.

thanks :)

It is quite the huge fandom, isn't it? I suppose you could even consider only taking a certain number of orders in case it does get out of control. That might help keep it down a little!

Hehe.. that's funny because I hadn't even realised I'd said 'single pair' in that. I just meant you should focus on one, let's say, grouping. Not just ficks with a certain couple or group, but broaden it to include a few more. It might make the selection process for you harder, but it'll guarantee that the authors you want in it won't feel too confined about what they're going to write.

And you're welcome! thank you!!

Speaking as a reader/librarian and owner of many FPS zines, I prefer hard copy over a computer screen any day of the week. I think the legal arguments have already been covered. Count me in as a potential buyer!

Mmmm. dombillijah...

yeah, it's hard copy thing that's really pushing me to do it, too. tell me about your FPS zines? what was the price range? how many stories? how's the quality (of writing and of printing)?

I can't say much that hasn't already been said.

1. Cover your ass legally by putting a bigass disclaimer in the front of the (or every, if there would be more than one ~~OH GOD PLEASE~~) magazine, preferably in red. And thirty-point type.

2. Be sure to check copyright laws and royalty shit, especially in your country. Usually, if a magazine is exported somewhere else, copyright laws get tangled up and usually amount to zilch. But if any of the slash-ees find it in your country, or not offensive so much as profitable, they may try to stick it to you for cash. So try to cover your ass as much as possible.

3. That is, if you decide that a zine is what you want to do. I personally like the idea of a zine, of something tangible, physical. Something I don't have to hop on the computer for. Something I can read/take with me/share everywhere. The internet seems limitless sometimes, but there are a few perks that real life has that electronics don't.

4. You have to realise that someone may, at any given point with (any of) your zine(s), decide that even though they bought it, they want to share it with people who haven't by, oh, posting on their webpage/blog/LJ. You and the authors who will have been ~~fucked~~ stolen from may decide to take some sort of action (whether it be legal or just "don't ever friend so-and-so"), or none at all. It's just a possibility that you'd have to be prepared for, and what to do if anything like that should (read: will) happen.

5. It sounds rilly cool and liek omg I'd buy it.

6. Huzzah.

re. 4...

it's no less safe in terms of authors' rights than LJ/mailinglists/archives: anyone can copy and paste without permission or credit online [and sadly, a significant minority do].

good point. but do you charge money for subscriptions to mailing lists or archives? I mean, if this is going to be a free zine, all's well and good.

thanks for bringing up the point, though. you smrt, i not. ^_^

thanks for you input - i think the 'not-published-online' issue is one that is close to the forefront of purchaser's minds, so #4 is a risk... then again, i think generally etiquette is followed here, and people don't share online... mostly because they paid for that privelege, yeah. heh.

re:royalty stuff... i think the authors i'd choose (ie. my hostees) are trustworthy when it comes to that...and i think most people would just love to see their stuff in print. plus, most people would recognise the silliness of suing someone for something that traditionally is breaking someone else's copyrigh.

thanks!

I know nothing about the legalities except that they sound scary. *cowers* But, that said, I doubt that it would be a problem. I wouldn't mind a CDROM, but I have to say that there's something about hard copy... (heheh. I said 'hard'). I'm in a weird situation because I have to find a way to keep the stuff I've printed out hidden from my family. I haven't quite figured out how to do that, yet, and I'll have the same problem with a zine. But I would still buy it! It sounds very cool. And I would definitely write for it ~~if I can get my muse off her rapidly widening butt~~.

I also think it would be cool to make an issue along the lines of a "greatest hits" topic. Imagine a zine that had Sabotage, Subversion, the entire Convergence series, and I can't think of anything else at the moment because my brain just spontaneously combusted. But, you get the idea! 'Twould be tres cool.

'lalala greatest hits lala'

doooood, you're quoting my liek, to-read-aloud list.

:D

Yarrr... Hope keeps talking about listening to you reading Sabotage in your lovely voice and ~~not-French~~ accent and the very thought makes me quiver. But, Convergence-verse? *explodes*

Considering Sabotage, unfinished, is already 90 mn long, can you *imagine* the time it'll take for the C!Verse?

And like, I've tried, but so far, I can't find the right voice. It's harder cause it's a whole novel (or several) with different rhythms, more dialogue and stuff. But I keep trying, and one day, I'll get it.

If you want what Hope does I can give you the links, too. I like to keeo a vague track of who I give it to, so I'm not making a post with them or anything, but, yeah. *smiles*

Catalystmmmmmm.

I'm surprised that Sabotage is that long! Though, at the time that I first read it, I'm sure it was the longest single fic I'd ever read. C!Verse would have to be hours and hours long, like one of those books-on-tape. And there's more still being written omg!

I can see how that would be very hard to read aloud. The different fics, with their different POVs, flow in different ways. Too bad we couldn't find people with the right accents to read the dialogue, and you could just do the narration. What a production! The mind boggles.

I would love the links to your reading, if you don't mind giving them out! That would be fabulous. My bunniewabbit@livejournal.com address is fine, should you decide I'm worthy. *grovels*

*squee!* Thanks for the links! Am downloading now. Thank the gods for broadband. O_o

~~sgjfhdlnsdlcjbgwoewflkdsbcjksdbkffsdf~~ i have been fantasising about ~~you~~ someone reading out convergence verse. gaaaahhhh.

people need to read out more whole fics and less just snippets. maybe if i get a microphone ~~and some courage~~ i'll start doing it. now that i have a fast connection and unlimited uploads :D

yay for audioporn!! GIVE IT!

I promise to start Convergence soon, after I finish Sabotage and Subversion.

Cause, yeah, it's the easier piece fo the lot, innit.

porn. yar.

yeah, i'm definitely set on the hard copy thing now. re: the family, i'm very intent on making the design slick! well, as slick as possible with $$$ restraints. mary has a f/s zine which is tacky and trashy and bleh, i want something that you can hide in your bookshelf! or even leave lying out on the coffee table and not be ashamed at its lack of taste.

ashdljsdhfsdjlhfl greatest hits. dude.

I think that if it's well-executed and all the bases are carefully covered, it would work out really well. Zines aren't as dead as you might think; I still order stuff from http://www.panderzinedistro.com and the like and just adore them. And I think it'd be fun to incorporate the people who are really good with layouts/pictures/etc as well; not necessarily fan art, just making it look beautiful and cohesive.

Good luck with it. :) And I'd love to help in any way possible.

thanks for the link, and the offer! and i definitely wouldn't even consider going ahead without 'all my bases covered'. heh.

no, what i wanted was an sordid volume of juicy, quality, yet-unpublished porn

how about some original-character slash then, in that case?

many of my favourite lotrips fics only make a nod to the "real" identity of the characters. why not hand-pick your own fave protegés and work with 'em?

just a thought!

n.x :)

hrmm, then again, people could just go to the library ;)

it's something that would be extremely cool - self-publishing your own book of short stories (by your favourite amateur writers, no less!), but i think it's a different project entirely. most people on my flist don't even write originalfic, and i'm not involved in a broader ofic community enough to be able to know i have a confirmed audience/market. though yeah. a bunch of queer stories by amateur authors sounds cool. maybe when i'm finished my degree and have more time for cool stuff.

I used to edit a music fanzine when I was a teenager, and really loved the creative experience. It's quite a vital, hands-on thing... one that I used to contribute to is even held by the British Library...

As for the 'death of the fanzine' (ugh, that was a title of a piece I wrote at uni) I don't think the internet has entirely killed the genre. People still want something tangible, something that they can hold in their little, sweaty mitts. Plus, think of how many people print off fics to read later/keep...

As for a real person publication, yes it does potentially get sticky in legal terms [although publishers have already started taking action against online FPS, so it's technically only a matter of time before Elijah sues LJ, ha!]... To avoid this it might be neccessary to sell via a PO Box, or take the cash online and not give out a postal address at all, using only an elected and non-tracable email address. However, I think you'd generally be fine -we're all just a bit paranoid nowadays... AFAIK all the LOTR actors are aware of what we're writing about them (to varying degrees) and no-one's taken action yet...

Just my tuppenyworth! appalling grammar for an English teacher, sorry :)

yeah, i would be pretty much definitely taking money online and not via postage - mostly because most of the audience would be overseas, and it's not worth the conversion of cheques/whatever to transfer it to australian dollars.

the lure of making a zine for me totally lies in the retro charm and the promise of the creative process of making one.. yeah, the zine for its original purpose probably is dead, but it's a novelty now that's kinda cool.

elijah suing lj, eep. heh. it's pretty obvious that people posting fics on the internet know they are fiction, publishing them in an underground zine probably shouldn't cause any trouble either. hopefully.

I'm somewhat of a lurker and reader only, so the idea of the zine is very neat. As far as legal issues go - as long as you make sure it's stated clearly as a work of fiction (a la online fic disclaimers), i'm not sure there should be a problem. I've seen lots of punk zines that have worse things than pr0n innit. Then, I have a BA so I know nothing.
Requesting writers that you personally know to produce stuff is a good idea, to ensure the quality's going to be worthwhile for readers. Taking a bit more time and making an audio CD (of maybe existing online fics) would be a warm fuzzy bonus. Fics 'n' pics would be good, as minimum... although i'm not too big on the fanart as many have already said. And I guess i'd want to know there were going to be certain pairings in the fics before i'd shell out.
So. Hi, i'm not really fandomish but i'm here to say stuff anyhow.

yar, the knowing pairings before you buy thing totally makes sense.

tell me about what punk zines have in them?

There's a lot of punk zines that are label oriented and will have info about bands and releases and whatnot in 'em. There's some that are more genre oriented and will have info about certain types of punk music. Those kinds are pretty much distributable without much problem.
There's zines that get more into the political side of things which are a bit touchier. Info about multinationals and how to boycott them; government conspiracy theory; revelations about governments that don't like you making revelations about 'em; info about protesting, vandalising, etc. I guess they're the things that might walk the line of legal or not. I've never heard of a MAJOR issue to do with any zine; unless you count the McLibel thing, but that was a pamphlet not a zine.
I think a lot of the time if there's the edgier stuff there may be disclaimers to whether it's true or not; and if there's hard info in there it's usually sourced. I guess you can't really source rps though, so disclaimers are an option. Not sure about fps though, because of copyright issues - but i'm sure that kind of thing would have been encountered with online fic anyhow.
I hope that was in some way informative.

quick and dirty: if you're all for it, i'm there.

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long, rambling spammage...

Re: long, rambling spammage...

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