hope | (no subject)

Whoa. You're like, rilly clevah.

And stuff.

*is generally in a lot of awe*

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

*bookmarks*

will read avidly when i'm not consumed with despair for the future of the world.

well done on finishing it!

*hugs* thankyou!

Most excellent! I completely agree with your comments on pornography and the tendency of certain feminist perspectives to equate it with everything bad. I can't and don't see it that way, although obviously I have a vested interest. I think some slash is just porn (intended to sexually arouse), and some is erotic (sexually arousing) and some is just romance with sex thrown in. None of those categories are mutually exclusive and some slash doesn't fall into any of them. It would require a helluva complicated Venn diagram.

One of my major disagreements with most of the known academic writings on slash (Jenkins, Bacon-Smith, Russ, Penley, etc.) is the way they characterize slash fandom as this place where women go to fantasize about equality in relationships. First of all, having read a lot of slash now, I would have to say that there is a quite a spectrum of relationship dynamics and motivations being represented, but there is this unquestionable theme about dominance and submission, sometimes extremely explicit. I guess my first beef with those writers was that they seemed to want to characterize slash as all ONE thing, and the other is that in my view slash is often where women go to fantasize about INequality...or perhaps work through a bunch of urges and longings that we have been socialized on some level to feel while having learned to greater or lesser degrees that inequality is not acceptable? Clearly, slash is expressing something, or a whole bunch of somethings, in the female psyche, and in that sense it must be liberating. I think it boils down to whether or not we are replicating and renewing ideas/images/themes that are repressive, or taking them on. Or neither. For myself, I can say that the battle in Casey's soul over how to "be" is my own battle, but in another way it is just something I am constructing for my own enjoyment. I don't know if I can ever stop enjoying stuff about dominance, submission, inequality, angst and emotional suffering. I know that I really don't care for those things in real life, so wtf, huh?

Oh, yeah (this is totally stream of consciousness now), that is the other thing about Jenkins and Bacon-Smith in particular that bugged me --- they write as though slashers are constantly engaged in doing something politically subversive and that is the real motivation behind it, yet they seem to suggest that it is not necessarily conscious on the part of these women. I think Penley is pretty bang on when she says that slashers are more self-aware and critical than they get credit for. She gives a much more nuanced analysis in general, I think.

Do you think that there has been a change in slash fandom, in the sense of there being "generations" of slash writing? It would be challenging to prove it, but I think that the very nature of slash allows for this constant reacting to and building upon itself. I think that there are people writing slash now who have very sophisticated motives, moreso than in the 70's and 80's perhaps. But this is probably an unverifiable feeling more than a fact.

Okay, wrapping up now...Just for the record, I have resolved to never, ever use the words "creamy", "cerulean", "orb", "porcelain" or "alabaster". I also true to avoid using the word "blue" but it has crept out on occasion :D

One of my major disagreements with most of the known academic writings on slash (Jenkins, Bacon-Smith, Russ, Penley, etc.) is the way they characterize slash fandom as this place where women go to fantasize about equality in relationships. ...yet they seem to suggest that it is not necessarily conscious on the part of these women.

I have a tendency to be fond of the theorists, possibly because they are the only ones really talking about it in a professional capacity... and i have to say i think there's a measure of accuracy in both those things.

I don't think the theorists necessarily think that slash is about equality in relationships - i think they're back on the basic level where they're talking about *why* people choose to write about two men in the first place - and i think they're right in assuming the 'equality' thing - because writing two men gives slashers a blank slate to begin with. the characters have an equality that a 'blank' male/female pair wouldn't have. so yeah, as you said - the point of my essay was to talk about how slashers make use of that equal blank slate - taking it back to dominance/submission issues. which is absolutely fascinating, because women are still addressing this issue of subordination, but removing it from the plethora of negative connotations mainstream pornography has.

i don't think *all* slashers are aware of this. but i think fandom is vaster than you give it credit for. i've come across a lot of different groups, different kinds of people doing pretty much the same thing. and i think we're in a relatively closed part of community here where we discusses it in such a great deal of depth. I mean, i've come across a great deal of misogynist slashers who wouldn't even be able to explain why they hate female characters so much. how are they understanding how they're exercising subversion?

Do you think that there has been a change in slash fandom, in the sense of there being "generations" of slash writing?

i'm not sure. i know the fandom environment has changed considerably since the trek zine days, changed with the internet and changed again with the emergence of RPS. when you say 'generations' do you mean generations of issues addressed? generations of awareness of subversion? generations of writing quality?

Just for the record, I have resolved to never, ever use the words "creamy", "cerulean", "orb", "porcelain" or "alabaster".

THANKYOU.

I don't mean to suggest that I totally disagree with all the things the theorists write, I think in a lot of ways they are quite correct. My main issue is just that the motives and meaning of slash are very complex (which was your point, I think) and they seem to prefer to ignore the "non-liberating" or "just because" aspects of it. I think you're right, that there are some strong misogynist tendencies in it at times. But I wonder if the fact that these tendencies have their outlet in slash may transform misogyny into liberating self-expression. Or not. Again, this would require some serious research and analysis.

I actually think Constance Penley is way cool. Jenkins is pretty cool too, although I think he romanticizes Star Trek fandom at times. I have contacted Constance Penley by email; she is a professor at one of the schools I am applying to and she has said that if I am admitted she would be interested in working with me. I can hardly imagine it, it seems so distant and impossible...but it could happen!

As for the generational thing, I was thinking in terms of generations of groups of writers...a "first wave", then a second that in some ways responds and builds to the first. Maybe we're into the third wave now? I dunno, just speculation. Perhaps there is something in RPS, for example, that exemplifies a "next wave"?

I just want to say, I hope you aren't offended by any of my ramblings...slash is just such an interesting topic...

not offended! i think i've come across a few people who don't like the theorists, and i've gotten so much joy out of them that i can't help but leap to their defence ;)

you're going to work with constance penley? I AM UNBEARABLY JEALOUS!

Just want you to know I full intend to read this, but must first engage in the thoroughly non-feminist activities of feeding my children, getting them to school, going to work, taking the sick one to the doctor, and getting the older one new ballet slippers.

:D <3 <3

'fandom'. 'Fandom' is the term used to describe a community of people who not only share a common interest in a particular text, but who actively express this interest by engaging in activities in which they interact with the text on a deeper level that the "average viewer" (Jenkins, 1994, p.551).

should that "that" be a "than"? "...than the average viewer"?

Am still reading! Off to class of my own now, but so far super interesting! :D

eep! thankee, beccameluv! i haven't handed the essay in yet, so i was able to fix that typo <3

Wow! That’s a highly intelligent essay you have there, and a great view of what’s been said about the matter by both academics and fans (most articles only cover either or). And it was about time someone wrote an essay with a focus on the pornographic aspect of slash, because I think that’s often underrated. The parts I found particularly interesting were the ones on feminisation and the connection between sexual appeal and violence (something that I’d really like to read more about – any suggestions?)

And I’m so glad you said a word about the appeal of m/m slash to het women not being (at least not necessarily being) the same as the appeal of f/f scenes in porn aimed at het men. I really think that’s one of the biggest misunderstandings in the whole “why slash?” debate.

Would you mind if I linked back to your article in the “Further Reading” list at the end of my own essay? :)

the connection between sexual appeal and violence (something that I’d really like to read more about – any suggestions?)

if you just do a catalogue search in your local university library for "pornography" as a subject, you're bound to come up with books and books on it - no doubt some of which will have chapters on violence in pornography. that's probably your best bet for well though-out and researched pieces.

I really think that’s one of the biggest misunderstandings in the whole “why slash?” debate.

me too! MAJOR cop out.

Would you mind if I linked back to your article in the “Further Reading” list at the end of my own essay? :)

please, go ahead! i tend to think of these fandom essays i do for uni as more of comprehensive/condensed versions of what All The Theorists say about fandom, so i'm glad to share it around with the people who are actually living it ;)

Thanks for the advice on the pornography/violence issue, though I was thinking about it in connection with slash in particular, I've hardly ever seen anything that dealt with that specifically.

You know, I really envy you that you actually get uni credits for writing about your fandom! I somehow never managed to combine the two... *g*

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