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come on everybody!

Well, I've been back into reading lots of theory on pornography this week. As I'm doing this with a mind to writing on fandom, I'm constantly applying the things I'm reading to my fandom experience.

And well, in my fandom experience, it seems as if the iconography or tropes that crop up in NC-17 slash stories aren't straight across the board. Or rather, there are varieties of flavours for different fandoms, certain images crop up more often than others.

So, here's a poll. I've lj-cut it because of the not work-safe language used. That said, NC-17 slash afficionados, I'd appreciate it if you filled out the following poll. At this point, it's only for my own interest, to see if I'm just imagining patterns or not.

First, a little more explanation. What spurred this particular line of thinking on was reading about the money shot. Here's wikipedia's entry on what they've termed the 'Cum shot', but in essence (heh heh, essence) the money shot is that shot in hard core porn films of the ejaculating penis. The semiotics behind it are theorised to be focused on the spectacle of the male orgasm, the visible evidence of climax (because of course, you can't film a woman's orgasm, hah). It is often extremely gratuitous, filmed in close-up, slow motion, etc. Because of the need for it to be a *visible* climax, another characteristic of the money shot is that the man is ejaculating all over someone (or something) else. If it is the climax of a sex scene, the penis will withdraw from whatever orifice it is thrusting into and ejaculate onto the outside of the other person's body. It's not surprising that this particular trope is associated with male power, a very aggressive expression of the power of the phallus; the (most oft female) recipient of all that spooge is quite grateful and overwhelmed with arousal at all the bodily fluids being spurted onto them. In other words, it's extremely gratuitous and fetishised and very much characteristic of hard-core (film) pornography up until about the 80s.

So, what I'm getting at is: I've been in about... 6-odd fandoms in the past 4+ years. at least four of them have been major fandoms, some even mega-fandoms. I have read so, so much slash. My point is, I've had some variety in experience of slash in different fandoms (even if I *do* have character types that I tend to pick up on).

And the Supernatural slash? Seems to really have a thing for the money shot. Like, hard-core money shot. Not just the mutual masturbation with-come-ending-up-on-the-other-person, but really fetishised, pulling-out-at-the-last-minute-to-come-on buttocks/back/chest/belly/face, even bukkake-style scenarios. It isn't in every story I've read, but it certainly isn't rare.

And it's not like I've never read money shots in other fandoms, but I'm pretty damn sure they didn't crop up as frequently. It was several years ago now, but I'm pretty sure I don't recall reading *any* money shots in hobbitslash, and if there were any in Lotrips, it was always acknowledged as a kind of kink - a non-vanilla practice. Whereas in Supernatural, it's pretty par for the course (already-broken taboo of incest, perhaps?).

So, enough of the terminology and speculation, lets get down to what I made this post for: to mine your collective experience in slash fandoms. If you've read a lot of NC-17 slash, preferably in at least two different fandoms, please take the following poll.

For the record, I tend to consider things a 'trend' when I can recall them cropping up in more than one place, but I can't necessarily remember each individual occurence. It happens enough times that I notice it, and can't say "oh yeah, X did it, and then Y did it." (though, you might be more fandom sociable than me, in which case ignore that last bit.)

For the purposes of this poll, we'll just think about m/m slash, as opposed to slash and het (and femslash), unless you'd like to discuss the money shot in any of these 'genres' in the comments :)

If you have more than one current fandom, pick the major one. If there is a large discrepancy of answers you'd give between different current fandoms, TELL ME ALL ABOUT IT IN THE COMMENTS, PLIS!

[Poll #767548]

Please, PLEASE feel free to comment away! DISCUSS. Go.

PS. feel free to pimp this around if you're interested too.

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Unhelpfully commenting just to say YES. I have noticed the increase in the cumshot thing. Not in the SPN fandom as much as the SPN RPS fandom (CWRPS in general, I suppose). What is up with that? I mean, not that I mind, but SPN and CWRPS are the only fandoms I've ever been in where it's been in a noticeable amount of fics.

yes! absolutely! it's really kind of popular in SPN-RPS!

I can't remember seeing many money shots in HP-fandom, nor in TPM-fandon, and even though I rarely read het, I'm pretty sure it's more common in slash fic.

thanks for making me think. My main pairing in Lotrips was Astin/Lij, and there was almost never a money shot in the fic in that fandom, and you're right; when it was part of a fic it was a little kinky, or presented as kinky. In that pairing it was all about the romance, most of the time (except for the gloriously and consciously kinky stories of beizy, may her inkwell never run dry) and that's why I think mostly what was presented was penetrative sex, almost as a symbol for romance, merging of souls, etc., and I say that in a very romantic way and not as a criticism or as a cynical comment. I loved it and it worked.

In The Sentinel and in Stargate SG-1 (where my OTP is the ever popular Jack/Daniel), there is a lot more mutual masturbation, sexual encounters that don't include penetrative sex, perhaps because of the WNG trope, perhaps because of the situations Our Heroes find themselves in.

In The Sentinel in particular, which is a one-pairing fandom, pretty much (Jim/Blair) I have seen a couple of authors, Anna/Eliade in particular, use the money shot a lot, and usually it's a way to express sublimated agression, as you say; kind of a way of demonstrating What This Dick Can Do, possession, marking, You're Mine, etc. When it's used that way it's always Jim coming on Blair. Again, I love that; it doesn't seem cliche.

My pairing in LOTR was Sam/Frodo, and I can't remember a single example of this with that pairing. There was a lot of mutual masturbation there, but it had nothing to do with the symbolic climax of someone getting someone else's come smeared all over them.

So I dunno what it might mean!

For me personally, it's not a kink. It doesn't turn me on to have the "camera" linger on that particular closeup, but it is very interesting to look at the symbolic ramifications of this.... I don't focus on that kind of encounter, for that reason. If I write mutual hand jobs or blow jobs that don't end in swallowing it's situational or something to do with the the characters' inexperience, not a point I'm trying to make about dominance or aggression. I enjoy D/s fic, but other sexual acts push my buttons in that kind of fic; not the money shot.

I find I'm hesitant to even try to sum up what I saw as authorial intent in any of these stories. Slash authors are so quirky, headstrong and articulate that it's next to impossible to generalize or make blanket statements. I fully expect to be argued with, in other words. But I'm looking forward to the comments!

come on everybody!

You're a bad person. But that's what I like about you.

This is a little off the topic of the poll, but I felt the need to inform you anyway: there is lots, and lots, and lots of rimming in comics fic-fandom. Not just in the slash, either.

oooooooooh. one more bazillion points for comics fandom yay!

Huh,
I hadn't really noticed moneyshots at all, so I can't really comment.

But, just reading this and the comments - I'm thinking that symbolically, it's a very ah, possesive action.
And SPN fandom, well, the relationship between Sam/Dean it's... kinda on shaky ground.
You want them to get the happy ever after thing but it's just so unlikely (even more than most slash). At the same time, there does seem to be this possesive vibe, or, just the way they work so well together, are a pair, Sam&Dean, together against the world, to the extent that even anti-incest or gen writers don't tend to put them with anyone else (kind of the emotional insularity and creepiness of incest without the benefits of the sex ;) ).
So, given that, I can see fans driving the characters to mark/claim/own each other in some way, and yet it seems a little desperate, and temporary.
:(

Um. That's my only idea. Oh yeah, and they do seem both kinda macho, macho guys. ;)
Or at least they're built like them, guns, fighting. I don't read much SPN so I can't really comment, but yeah, I can kinda see either of them doing the traditional 'dicking around' if they were having sex, doing the porn-star dominance games. Uh, they've both dated girls who look like porn star models, so I can see the temptation to do something like that if I was a guy, if only for the sake of... um. Millions of other guys fantasies?
Eh.
*shrugs*

I give up.
:)

FWIW, without doing, y'know actual research, I can remember *writing* two fics with money shots (one B7, one Firefly) and both of them were specifically in the context of space!porn flicks so it's a circle. The Circle of Smut! With antelopes and everything.

In a way, though, I've found slash to be counter-money-shot because the *instant* there's a drop of semen anyplace, the characters usually rush to the bathtub or shower to wash up.

*laughs*

So basically it's saying that Sam & Dean are dirty, dirrrty boys, right?

Makes sense.
;)

Also, in the context of the noglove_nolove multifandom ficathon (all stories must include barrier protection), it's perfectly possible that the participants are not interested in a money shot per se, but they do want to avoid coming inside their partners.

> I don't read much SPN
Oh man, I only just noticed - that should have been, I don't read much SPN RPS/RPF.

SPN fic I read in bucketloads.

I can't answer your fifth question, since my last four fandoms have only been sci-fi and set in the future (and/or the ambiguous high-tech past). I have no idea about RPS or manga.

Also, when I was involved in Oz fandom years ago (maybe 1999-2000), there was a lot of very explicit porn that I remember. It was a thing in Oz fandom, possibly fuelled by the atmosphere of the show (prison, brutal, nasty) which engendered some seriously smutty sex (both schmoopy and brutal, depending on the writer and the pairing). I have no idea if it still is like that, as I left the fandom in 2001 or so.

I remember there being a lot of very explicit Firefly slash, back in 2002, although that could reflect the mailing lists I was on. For a while, it seemed like the explicit stuff was less popular, but it seems to me that post-movie, there has been a bit of an increase back to more smut being written.

I've been in a great many fandoms and I must say that for money shots I've really only seen it come up frequently in Supernatural. Though, as fandoms go, Supernatural is by far and away the kinkiest of those I've been in. I've always assumed it had something to do with the fact that it has the greatest majority of slash and incest readers/writers. Maybe it's breaking that first taboo or maybe it's the subject of the canon, the flexibility to be able to make whatever cracked out kink you have come true that does it.

Though, as fandoms go, Supernatural is by far and away the kinkiest of those I've been in.

Never delved into Harry Potter then? SPN brings the kink, but Harry Potter ties it up and comes all over its face.

Do you think so?
I got the impression that HP is just plain the biggest fandom around, not that it was partiularly kinky.
I.e. It's just got more of everything, so, if you go down the aisle marked 'kink', well yeah, you've got a huge selection.
Comparing it to SPN is like, mega-sized chain store thing vs corner store. What's HP like if you compare it to the overall proportion of fic?
Ok, stupid question - I just went to look at fanfiction.net (to compare badfic quantities for a basic metric, not to actually read anything ;) ) and they've got 3,051 Supernatural fics versus 256,058 for Harry Potter.
Uh, comparing anything 80 times larger than that other is unlikely to come up with relevent results.*
So um, I'll look at it from a different perspective - I'm guessing the kinky reader could go to town in HP, and read nothing but [insert kink here], but for the average reader, how much kink would they come across, vs say, in SPN?

* (I'm sure many far smaller fandoms would be kinkier if we did it on a purely proportional basis, and even one well-known fan can start a rash of a particular type of fic, ie Thete1's Lost Boys Archive)

I do think SPN has the kink - incest, bondage, genderswap, gun-play, and blood-play come to mind.

HP has - incest, twincest, genderswap, bodyswap, student/teacher, tons of non-con, Death Eater orgys, sex with the giant squid, SKULLFUCKING, I could go on and on.

My friend

duia actually had the perfect description of the HP fandom. "HP fandom brings the CRAZY. That's why I call it home. Because people understand that. They're like, 'man, that's a little hardcore,' and you say, 'oh, I'm from HP fandom' and they're like 'OHHHHH OKAY' and just happy that you didn't rape their mom with a squid.

Being from HP fandom is like having gone to fuckin' 'NAM. People are like, 'man, I heard of this really strange kink, I'm pretty sure someone was just bullshitting around with me' and you're like, 'whatever, I'm from HP fandom. I've written that, WITH MONKEYS. YES. MAGICAL WIZARD MONKEYS. WHAT NOW HORE. WHAT.'"

It really is a world of true. ;-) Didn't keep me from dropping HP for SPN though, because there's really no way someone could keep up with both fandoms. There just aren't enough hours in the day.

*snorts with laughter*

Respect, j0!
;D

I'm into the HP fandom and while there are massive piles of kink there, the fandom is much larger. The quantity of kink for the number of people in Supernatural is just staggering. Though in Supernatural I at least will never have to see Harry/Floberworm!

Hmm. Reading this has made me realize that while I've participated in a lot of fandoms and read a lot of fandoms, the only fandom I've really read *voraciously* in is comics. So I don't think I'm very qualified to do your poll, alas.

But I did want to comment with this icon.

I wandered in via the PapaWin friends list...

I've read fanfic in lots of different fandoms over the years and personally I've noticed more money-shot style sex scenes in the X-Files and Supernatural than any of the others. In LotRs it showed up in the human pairings occasionally but I didn't notice that kind of thing in the pieces of hobbit-slash I read. That's not to blame the sci-fi tinted shows. I can't recall any of that in Roswell, not off the top of my head anyway. Personally I suspect there has to be a certain amount of aggression/testosterone heaviness in the fandom to cause money-shots to show up more often since there's a decided air of 'claiming territory' involved when the writer uses it.

I think there was a money-shot challenge in Lotrips, which kinda skews things a little. IIRC, it was driven by a feeling that there weren't any in the fandom.

The only other place I've seen it is in some of the offshoots of the Establishment RPG, the really hardcore one who's name I'm forgetting now.

er, and plenty in the Est as well, no? i mean, it always felt pretty common in the Est... nothing extraordinary, at least.

Probably, I just don't remember it...

a money-shot challenge in Lotrips

hehehehe that was me. twice.

i think it also has to do with how the characters are originally percieved (question 5, really). for instance, in lotr fps, i saw a lot more money-shot slash with aragorn and legolas than the hobbits (same goes for lotrips), because while legolas and aragorn are both masculine (capacity for violence, leadership, etc.) characters, the hobbits are drawn softer-- not necessarily effeminate but simply less, you know. virile. and since the money shot is, in essence, proof of virility, it makes sense that the more "manly" characters would be the focus of people writing about money-shots.

so, it makes sense that it's cropping up a lot more in spn (both fps and rps), because when it boils down to it, spn is about men being manly men together. sure, they make googly eyes at each other while doing it, but it's all guns-brandishing and male posturing and, you know, defeating demons. so there's already a context for using both sam and dean as masculine sexual figures, so.

...yeah. i kinda lost my train of thought, but you know what i mean.

I'm pretty sure I don't recall reading *any* money shots in hobbitslash

Well, we're only two writers, but

anatsuno and I wrote enough money shots in our Establishment Dom/Elijah arc that our regular readers commented on the frequency.

hobbitslash = short middle-aged humanoids with hairy feet having sex and eating lots of mushrooms ;)

i.e. hobbitslash in terms of fps, not rps. :D

Okay, then consider I was responding to "if there were any in Lotrips, it was always acknowledged as a kind of kink - a non-vanilla practice" -> fair enough, Establishment is a kink-based RPG, but it's not actually a practice that I consider non-vanilla.

I also think that there have been money shots in Lotrips but that the act isn't usually emphasized, so it's not necessarily something people remember distinctly. But in a general way, I remember quite a few descriptions of come, and come hitting skin, enough that I think Lotrips probably has a few more than readers are remembering in retrospect.

Oh of course, you're right. I was thinking the full pull-out come-on-face kinda thing. But there's a good amount of handjobs and and frottage, culminating in ejaculation. Quite a lot indeed. *happy memories*

Hm. It took me a minute to think, because it's not really a sex act that registers with me (it's neither a kink or squick), but Harry Potter fandom does have more of that kind of thing than the previous fandoms I've been in (X-Files, Joss fandoms, Farscape). I think it has a lot to do with, yes, the fandom being so full of incredibly transgressive sex acts and plotlines that you hardly notice something like that amongst the incestuous bloodplay chan.

I also think, though, that the fan demographic makes a difference in that HP fandom tends to associate really kinky sex acts with heightened romance, and I think that's because it's a younger generation of fans. It's hard to imagine cumshots featuring prominently in, say, XF fandom, where the fans were predominately middle-aged and there was a lot of domestic slash. HP seems to run more along the lines of "bondage + dirty talk + making Character A watch Character B blowing Character C = OMG A/B forever!!!" Which is cool, just an adjustment for me. *g*

I write in Garak/Bashir (Star Trek DS9) but I also read / have read in Sentinel, Star Wars TPM, due South, LOTR, and LOTR RPS.

To the best of my recollection, I have never read a story with a money shot. I had no idea anyone would think of writing such a thing.

Now, to be fair, I rarely go looking for new material outside G/B anymore; I prefer to re-read stories I already know I like.

As for G/B... it's a pretty quiet little fandom these days, but in general, I think Trek slash fandoms are more accurately classified as "Trek fandoms" than "slash fandoms," affected by trends in Trek circles rather than non-Trek slash circles.

This is probably a repeat of other comments, and I've never seen SPN, but I bet it has a little to do with that whole adolescent guys masturbating together kind of thing. Like, you can get from there, which might be something regular brothers do, to sex fairly easily. And the mutual masturbation has an automatic money shot, so if there were a lot of fics like that, I can see how it would become a "thing" in the fandom even in fics that aren't about circle jerks or mutual masturbation.

I don't think I've ever read a fic in any fandom with a money shot. Am now even more weirdly intrigued by SPN.

Honestly, I never really thought about that particular facet of fandom until this poll, but that you mention it...

I'd have to say, I've never read what you seem to be classifying as a money shot in Supernatural (admittedly, I haven't read all that much. I'm on the peripheral in that fandom), but I did write it once in Numb3rs fandom.

As a reader, I noticed it a LOT more in Buffy/Angel fandom, where the vampiric element seems to lend itself to the idea of 'claiming' and power plays.

.
Maybe it's a function of the fandoms I read, but I've rarely "seen" cum-shots -- less than a dozen in six years of reading. Because of such limited experience, I didn't even answer the last two questions, and I'm not sure the others are valid. *g*

The thing is, I view cum-shots (figuratively speaking -- from what I know by reading about them, not actually seeing them) in filmed porn as what you said -- it is absolutely a "male power" thing. There is a great disparity in perceived social power between the male "shooter" and the female "recipient", and it's all about the male "strutting his stuff", and nothing about the female gratification.

In the slash I read, I prefer that the sex scenes be more about a mutual exchange of gratification. One guy does get cum on him because, unless they're in a 69, only one has his penis inserted into a bodily cavity. But I have rarely seen the "pull it out and spray it all over your partner" shot.

I suspect -- can't prove it -- that my lack of exposure is due to the reading I select. I won't read RPS, ever. And, if I feel a power "imbalance" between the two main characters, it feels out of character to me and I'll likely stop reading before we even get to the sex scenes. I look for stories where the main characters share their experiences equally; there may be a certain amount of give-and-take, but there's not a power disparity where one will be compelled to "strut his stuff" over the other. If I don't read imbalanced relationships, the sex scenes are not likely to lead to "cum shots".

So, basically, I suspect that the answers you get will be all over the board, depending on the reading habits of the respondants. Some people are much more eclectic in their reading than others, and will likely have more exposure to different varieties of sex scenes.
.

I'd never thought about it until I saw your poll...but, there are a lot more money shots in Supernatural fanfiction than I'm used to. I'd say the only one that really comes close is Buffy fandom. I've been in fandoms where the canon is a lot darker and more violent than both SN and BtVS, but have barely come across any instance of money shot-like scenes, so I definitely think it doesn't have to do with how dark a world is or the supernatural aspects of it.

The incest-issue is interesting, though, because while I've read lots of incest fics they were either in a much smaller fandom or in a fandom where I just can't imagine scenes out of porn to be terribly popular. I don't know why it would coincide with the breaking of social mores, but maybe the writers of these fics feel that the money shot is more deviant and therefore more suited to that sort of relationship?

Yeah, it's an interesting conundrum. Maybe there's not reason for it's prevalence in SN. Maybe it's just a huge, weird coincidence ^.^

Defining a "money shot" as a moment when someone pulls out of fucking to display the ejaculating penis -- I've *never* seen it written baldly just as that, in umpty fandoms with oodles of NC-17 stories over twenty-plus years. This is why I've answer no, no change, and not checked any boxes in the poll questions. I don't go looking for it as a kink, and in general avoid stories that evoke any ambience of commercial porn, but I'd probably have seen it *sometime* if it were at all common.

On the other hand, slash writing where the sex features hand jobs and the like, where the inevitable ejaculation is described in loving detail as well as the reaction of the person it lands on, are not at all rare. Are you including those in your definition? They lack the jarring, counter-intuitive falseness of pulling out for the camera at climax.

However, my slash reading hasn't taken in Supernatural (as yet), so I can't really argue with anything you say about that fandom. It may be a slash trope whose time has come. So to speak.

I think it's more interesting the focus in slash on pentration.

I remember seeing it a few times in various anime/manga fandoms, but never in anything else.

The only time I can honestly remember money shots is in the lotrips "one shot" challenge put together by miss Blythe. How bizarre! How random! Maybe it's because the characters in Supernatural are so over-the-top straight, and it's a straight-guy kinda thing?

Just to add to the Harry Potter debate, I definitely think the presence of the money-shot is probably related to the size of the fandom. I've very rarely encountered it, even though HP is my primary fandom, but I am sure that it would be possible to ONLY read stories with money-shots. HP - we cater to all kinks!

My main boyslash fandom, House, MD, is a very neat one, or so I've got the impression, not focusing on bodily fluids except as messes to be dealt with (which appeals to me as that is my biggest objection to sex). I've read some boyslash in BtVS/Angelverse, and the sex there is unsurprisingly wilder, but the "cum shots" haven't been excessive in the little I've read. Blood is the bodily fluid of choice there.

I tend to find that the frequency of that is correlated more to the general kinkiness level of the fics than anything else - the more it's about twoo luv romance, the less likely I am to see it.

Although with a previous poster, I've rarely encountered pulling out in slash fics, at all. A few more times in het fics (usually presented as a 'safe' sex thing rather than a kink), but, yeah, not even much then. Blowjob bukkake, however, oh yes.

But even then, in my recollection anyway, the actual come shot rarely seems to get much emphasis; the image that comes to mind is playing with the semen afterward, or licking it up, or whatever, more than the actual spewing it around. So, yes. (And I read in many, many fandoms, but don't read much in any of the ones that have been previously listed as heavy on the money shots.)

I've dabbled in several fandoms, but not as much as I've been involved in Supernatural. I didn't really notice until you said something, but I think you may be right. I, personally, love the money shot in adult fiction -- it's that fetishization (fetishing?) of masculinity, the very physical, visual, affirmation of the essential difference that makes men who they are. It's visceral and beautiful and sexy. I mean, sometimes, I'll prefer the jackoff session to actual sex, just so I can watch my guy come, and it sets me off like crazy; I'll come with him, or only seconds behind.

Supernatural is pretty much all about the fetishization of masculinity : Dean's music, the classic muscle car, the leather, the adolescent fantasy of eternal youth and lack of responsibility and always being on the road, Dean's very aggressive and blatant and desperate show of heterosexuality, the lack of female characters. I love it.

And because a lot of the sex happens between brothers -- there's that element of a shared childhood, when boys are still wild and untamed and messy and uninhibited. Sex with your brother isn't exactly rare, although I think most guys won't talk about it.. that initiation into sex, and the kind of go-with-it sweat/saliva/semen combo that becomes almost mystical in my mind. I love to just roll around in it (metaphorically, naturally) and celebrate it and see/feel/smell/taste enjoy that like whoah.

I'm kinda tired and rambling, so.. sorry if that makes absolutely no sense. :)

I wouldn't say that "a lack of female characters" is any real factor, though. Band of Brothers has like, literally one non-recurring female character, and all the sex in the fanfiction is very tame. I think owing to the nature of the miniseries, which was based on actual people, some of them still living, whose relatives are active on the internet -- the fanfiction constantly walks a line between slash and RPS. And the writers all had genuine respect for the men, unlike other RPS fandoms, where there seems to be little to none.

...I just cannot express how happy I am to learn that my new fandom is THE ONE WITH ALL THE MONEY SHOTS. it's like coming home. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

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come on everybody!

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oh, yes...

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