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My heart belongs to...
You may or may not have noticed, but I appear to have become fixated on the character of John Winchester. Of course, this is largely due to the influence of ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
monkeycrackmary and derryderrydown, but it's nonetheless... weird. I am very familiar with the old falling-in-love-with-a-character thing, but this is not that. I totally fell for Sam and Dean quite a while ago, and that translates into squeeing and lusting and reading everything I can about them. But I don't really lust after John. I'm just... compelled by him. I have no particular urge to read fic about him, slash or gen, though I do enjoy it if it's well done. Would click on a Sam/Dean story sooner than I'd click on a John story, though.
But when it comes to writing, and metaing, and constantly thinking? John. The majority of what I've written lately has been Johnfic, and the next few bunnies I've got/am working on are all John stories.
As I've been chatting endlessly to Derry about, I think part of it is the John/Dean (or John-Dean) dynamic that I'm finding so fascinating lately. On a meta-level, it engages me far more than the Sam/Dean dynamic does - I think part of that is because the tropes of the Sam/Dean dynamic have been done to death in fanfiction (leaving each other, "is anything we've ever done normal?", caring for each other) that I can't really be excited about them any more. And those issues are pretty par for the course, even taking into account the incest.
The John/Dean dynamic is so much more subtle and nuanced, though - and yes, I know you're reading this and going "wtf? no it isn't! daddy porn! that's pretty fucking blunt!" but. I think that response is part of the reason I don't really enjoy the majority of John/Dean fics out there - they just latch on to the alpha/beta dynamic and interpret it really bluntly - which leaves me really unsatisfied, leaves my characterisation radar unsatisfied. Like the characters are shells to play out their roles.
Yes, the fucked-up-ness of the John/Dean relationship is appealing. If you're pinged by the so-called deviance of fraternal incest, paternal incest is infinitely more 'perverse', at least within the framework of social mores.
But I say again, complexity. It's the alpha/beta dynamic that plays out between John and Dean that really needs close examination, instead of just taking it as a given. Dominance/submission is another way of looking at it, and if you have ever explored such a dynamic yourself - either theoretically or in practice - I think you'll agree that it's a lot, LOT more than the surface reading of oppressor/oppressed.
And when it comes to John/Dean slash within this framework - for me it really comes down to that metaphor again, which I'll reiterate here because I'm fond of it:
I have red paint and I have blue paint, and I love playing with them, but I'd really like to see if I can make purple. So I mix the paints together, and heyy! Purple! How does this allegory translate to what I'm talking about? Well, for some fans, slash is the purple in this story. For other fans, slash is the paint.
In other words, the John/Dean relationship for me is this too-good-to-pass-up opportunity to explore their (power) dynamic. Slash is the medium with which I'd like to explore this. And meta too, of course. So, to continue:
The dominant/submissive relationship between them. It does in a way hark back to the dom/sub dynamic of S&M, but stripping away the pain element to the basis of the dynamic, the roles of the dominant and the submissive - each participant in this dynamic is empowered by it. It's not heirarchical; both the dom and the sub occupy their position and work from within it to compliment each other, have an equal part in the relationship.
Dean is not a weak character. He is not a repressed character. I think we could all pretty much agree that he's an empowered character. And I think we could all pretty much agree that he is beta to John's alpha. But occupying the beta position doesn't disempower him. As Derry and I constantly discuss, the medium of slash allows an exploration of the dynamic and Dean's position within it. In the John/Dean relationship Dean is not abused or oppressed. From his position as submissive/beta he's able to exert his own control over the situation, which arguably translates to manipulation (which isn't a negative thing, I have to say - when it comes down to it, all human relations are based on manipulation).
In other words, empowered!sub!Dean doesn't exert control by trying to occupy a dominant position, but by articulating his submissive position. And in a slashy relationship, it would be something they would both be aware of to a degree - in (Derry and) my John/Dean 'verse at least, there is no way Dean (or John) would initiate sex with an un-disguised invitation. If Dean wanted to initiate it, he'd manipulate the dynamic, maybe in a kind of provocation of it, enough to require re-asserting it.
And this? I find WAY more compelling and interesting than the old don't leave me/don't over-protect me dynamic of Sam/Dean (not that that the Sam/Dean relationship *isn't* interesting, it's just that John/Dean is more interesting to me right now).
And it's hard. And complicated. To represent and construct through fanfiction, I mean; it's so easy to rely on the surface reading that constructs a heirarchy, a sense of oppression or abuse. It's easy to over-emphasize the dom/sub aspect to it, to just stampede over the intricacies of the dynamic that are required in order to maintain believable characterisation.
They *are* both very emotionally unavailable. This doesn't mean that their emotional connection is non-existent or stunted. It's just not acknowledged openly. John and Dean don't talk about things, they just do them. And that's "talk" in the verbal sense, and the body language sense, and the behavioural sense. In terms of, Dean wouldn't say "Daddy, sex me" and he wouldn't walk into the room naked and throw a leg over. That (for me), would be out of character. John accepting either of those approaches would also be out of character. They do what they do and they shut up about it - articulation from within their established positions and characterisations for a harmonious, mutually beneficial relationship.
Dean is definitely not an oppressed, abused wife. Just because he's not the alpha doesn't mean he's not empowered and able to exert control.
In, er, somewhat related news:
Okay, next on the bill for John-meta: wee!Winchesters.
I keep on typing "meat" instead of "meta".
monkeycrackmary and derryderrydown, but it's nonetheless... weird. I am very familiar with the old falling-in-love-with-a-character thing, but this is not that. I totally fell for Sam and Dean quite a while ago, and that translates into squeeing and lusting and reading everything I can about them. But I don't really lust after John. I'm just... compelled by him. I have no particular urge to read fic about him, slash or gen, though I do enjoy it if it's well done. Would click on a Sam/Dean story sooner than I'd click on a John story, though. But when it comes to writing, and metaing, and constantly thinking? John. The majority of what I've written lately has been Johnfic, and the next few bunnies I've got/am working on are all John stories.
As I've been chatting endlessly to Derry about, I think part of it is the John/Dean (or John-Dean) dynamic that I'm finding so fascinating lately. On a meta-level, it engages me far more than the Sam/Dean dynamic does - I think part of that is because the tropes of the Sam/Dean dynamic have been done to death in fanfiction (leaving each other, "is anything we've ever done normal?", caring for each other) that I can't really be excited about them any more. And those issues are pretty par for the course, even taking into account the incest.
The John/Dean dynamic is so much more subtle and nuanced, though - and yes, I know you're reading this and going "wtf? no it isn't! daddy porn! that's pretty fucking blunt!" but. I think that response is part of the reason I don't really enjoy the majority of John/Dean fics out there - they just latch on to the alpha/beta dynamic and interpret it really bluntly - which leaves me really unsatisfied, leaves my characterisation radar unsatisfied. Like the characters are shells to play out their roles.
Yes, the fucked-up-ness of the John/Dean relationship is appealing. If you're pinged by the so-called deviance of fraternal incest, paternal incest is infinitely more 'perverse', at least within the framework of social mores.
But I say again, complexity. It's the alpha/beta dynamic that plays out between John and Dean that really needs close examination, instead of just taking it as a given. Dominance/submission is another way of looking at it, and if you have ever explored such a dynamic yourself - either theoretically or in practice - I think you'll agree that it's a lot, LOT more than the surface reading of oppressor/oppressed.
And when it comes to John/Dean slash within this framework - for me it really comes down to that metaphor again, which I'll reiterate here because I'm fond of it:
I have red paint and I have blue paint, and I love playing with them, but I'd really like to see if I can make purple. So I mix the paints together, and heyy! Purple! How does this allegory translate to what I'm talking about? Well, for some fans, slash is the purple in this story. For other fans, slash is the paint.
In other words, the John/Dean relationship for me is this too-good-to-pass-up opportunity to explore their (power) dynamic. Slash is the medium with which I'd like to explore this. And meta too, of course. So, to continue:
The dominant/submissive relationship between them. It does in a way hark back to the dom/sub dynamic of S&M, but stripping away the pain element to the basis of the dynamic, the roles of the dominant and the submissive - each participant in this dynamic is empowered by it. It's not heirarchical; both the dom and the sub occupy their position and work from within it to compliment each other, have an equal part in the relationship.
Dean is not a weak character. He is not a repressed character. I think we could all pretty much agree that he's an empowered character. And I think we could all pretty much agree that he is beta to John's alpha. But occupying the beta position doesn't disempower him. As Derry and I constantly discuss, the medium of slash allows an exploration of the dynamic and Dean's position within it. In the John/Dean relationship Dean is not abused or oppressed. From his position as submissive/beta he's able to exert his own control over the situation, which arguably translates to manipulation (which isn't a negative thing, I have to say - when it comes down to it, all human relations are based on manipulation).
In other words, empowered!sub!Dean doesn't exert control by trying to occupy a dominant position, but by articulating his submissive position. And in a slashy relationship, it would be something they would both be aware of to a degree - in (Derry and) my John/Dean 'verse at least, there is no way Dean (or John) would initiate sex with an un-disguised invitation. If Dean wanted to initiate it, he'd manipulate the dynamic, maybe in a kind of provocation of it, enough to require re-asserting it.
And this? I find WAY more compelling and interesting than the old don't leave me/don't over-protect me dynamic of Sam/Dean (not that that the Sam/Dean relationship *isn't* interesting, it's just that John/Dean is more interesting to me right now).
And it's hard. And complicated. To represent and construct through fanfiction, I mean; it's so easy to rely on the surface reading that constructs a heirarchy, a sense of oppression or abuse. It's easy to over-emphasize the dom/sub aspect to it, to just stampede over the intricacies of the dynamic that are required in order to maintain believable characterisation.
They *are* both very emotionally unavailable. This doesn't mean that their emotional connection is non-existent or stunted. It's just not acknowledged openly. John and Dean don't talk about things, they just do them. And that's "talk" in the verbal sense, and the body language sense, and the behavioural sense. In terms of, Dean wouldn't say "Daddy, sex me" and he wouldn't walk into the room naked and throw a leg over. That (for me), would be out of character. John accepting either of those approaches would also be out of character. They do what they do and they shut up about it - articulation from within their established positions and characterisations for a harmonious, mutually beneficial relationship.
Dean is definitely not an oppressed, abused wife. Just because he's not the alpha doesn't mean he's not empowered and able to exert control.
In, er, somewhat related news:
Prelude
John/Dean, PWP, rated R.
Custom-made for
Okay, next on the bill for John-meta: wee!Winchesters.
I keep on typing "meat" instead of "meta".
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empowered!sub!Dean doesn't exert control by trying to occupy a dominant position, but by articulating his submissive position.
this exactly captures the essence of the relationship. And why Sam, as many who don't understand this dynamic can only see submissive as weak, and not understand that the dominant/submissive positions are equally valid and empowered positions. i think Dean knows this, but having Sam back, and undermining it disrupts for Dean.
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Yeah, I agree - Sam is so completely removed from this dynamic, he can't even understand it. And also, the Sam/Dean dynamic is just so completely different... yeah. Sam cannot comprehend through his own experience the balance of John and Dean's relationship.
Oh, Dean.
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As I said within there somewhere; I think that often squeamishness with slash pairings comes through different ways different fans use/see slash - for some, it's a romantic/sexual thing, which only works if the characters have sexual/romantic chemistry; for other people that's irrelevant, because slash is the medium with which you play with the characters. I'll slash anyone whose dynamic I'm interested in exploring, regardless of their likelihood or potential to become lovers in canon characterisation!
Slash for me is a medium as much as drawing or writing or vidding is. So while I understand where you're coming from with not wanting to slash them, I think we're in completely different places, not just opinions!
In summary, yay fic! yay fandom!
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indeed!
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Oh dude, totally. I get a kick out of them too. Not saying that there's anything wrong with THAT! :D
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I happen not to get pinged, or more correctly, the squick of John/Dean more often overrides the brainkink ping. While I say "go! have fun! rock on!" to the John/Dean slashers exploring it in a sexual way, what I would personally love to read more of is John&Dean fic exploring that relationship that I see as soldierly. If you're familiar with Firefly, the Mal/Zoe dynamic or in BSG, Starbuck and Adama, Sr. The following orders, the "sir"s, all the military trappings of their interaction are not about John oppressing Dean or breaking his soul, it's about Dean's NEED to have someone to trust and keep his world aligned. In a good military unit, one would follow their commanders orders not because of fear but because of trust.
I totally squeed outloud alone here in my apt when you said Dean was beta to John's alpha. I keep talking with Boy and PT about how Dean is an beta who, in the course of the show, is forced to be an alpha. He'd MUCH RATHER have John there telling him what to do because of a TRUST-based relationship. It's not blind faith, as Sam said in Scarecrow, it's very real faith - based in his life's experience - that John will keep them all alive and Dean can, by extension, keep Sam alive (the clear chain of command in the Winchester family is obviously a lot of what Sam rebels against so hardcore) if he does what John tells him/would want him to do. It's been that way since that scene all we fangirls will trip out over probably FOREVER when Dean is given his helpless infant brother and carried him to safety by following John's order.
To tumble over the edge into Sam-Dean land... LOL The thing I find TOTALLY interesting about meta-ing S1 Sam and Dean is that over the course, Dean starts to realign his world into trusting/agreeing with Sam (instead of/in the place of John) while also still acting as caretaker to him. Their relationship equalizes through the season as they start to trust each other more than anyone else, and for Dean that includes John - all of DT comes to mind with Sam trusting Dean saying John was possessed, Dean using the gun to save Sam when he knew his father would be furious. And the MOST fascinating and twisty part to me is that Sam was acting as the voice of their father the whole episode re: The Colt, and Dean totally rebels against that the entire time. Then Sam thanked him instead of chastise him the way John would have/did. But then again, I'm totally insane for the Sam/Dean relationship in any context. :D
In conclusion, SUB!DEAN IS HOT. The End.
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Yes! i am familiar with BSG & FF, indeed I am, intimately so :D The difference between Zoe&Starbuck and Dean, though, is that this is Dean's life. This isn't just ('just') a trust thing - Possibly the most important relationship in Dean's life is made up of this. Whereas Zoe can go 'home' to Wash, Starbuck has her own life aside from being a pilot... Dean's very character is based on this alpha/beta relationship (setting aside for the moment - if possible! - his relationship with Sam).
He'd MUCH RATHER have John there telling him what to do because of a TRUST-based relationship. It's not blind faith, as Sam said in Scarecrow, it's very real faith - based in his life's experience - that John will keep them all alive and Dean can, by extension, keep Sam alive
Yes yes YES! A million times yes.
And yes also to the shifting of power balances as Sam and Dean re-write their own relationship as two individuals/adults out on their own, as equals. Oh happy happy. Yes, ultimately I am a Sam-Dean or Sam/Dean girl, and DT... holy fuck. Yeah, watched that again today. Just everything it revealed about the transformed (beautiful, BEAUTIFUL) Sam-Dean dynamic.... yeah.
In conclusion, SUB!DEAN IS HOT.
I second that!!! :D
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*nodnod* I hadn't thought of that, and I flop back and forth between whether I agree with you or not. I think I do agree about Starbuck and less so with Zoe. Starbuck has relationships, interactions and status of her own (i.e. being in charge of pilot training) outside of being Adama's best/crazyass pilot and whatnot. But, yes, Zoe has Wash, but Mal's orders still override, a lot of the time, her relationship with Wash - it was one of the most interesting pieces of tension in the show for me, the Wash/Zoe/Mal dynamic. And everyone on Serenity sort of only has each other. It's a sample size of 9 instead of 3 as with the Winchesters, but they still are rather isolated from everyone but each other.
(Here's a statement that spun my head when I first realized it about myself... "I slash Mal/Zoe and they're a het pairing." Thoughts? :D)
So good call! Dean definitely does not have much beyond his family and the relationships therein, though he does do the same "outside" things Starbuck does to an extent - go to bars, get laid, play cards, etc - to "blow off steam" which are largely lacking in emotional depth of interaction.
Hm. I'm not sure I made any sense there and I might have looped around to contradicting myself but you've made me think and that's always good. :D
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Also the sheer amount of love he has for that man... We're talking Dean pretty much threw his whole (potential) life away in order to follow in John's footsteps, hunting evil. As Sam says in Scarecrow, I think, he doesn't have any immediate personal reason to hunt the demon (because he was very young when Mary died) but he does it out of this loyalty to his family (and dad). And I love him for it :D
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Yeah, I think too often people just completely ignore the fact that Dean also made a choice - Sam's ability to actually make the choice to leave shows that yeah, it was actually a possibility for Dean - like I said, Dean is a strong character. He chose to be where he is now, I think to a degree that shows a whole lot of strength in and of itself!!
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I think some people see Dean's way as the easy way out but I would argue it was the more difficult choice. That's what he believes is right, though, even if he regrets it sometimes.
Meat meta!
Woo.
There's so much kink potential in this fandom, it's scary. In the good way I mean. ;)
Re: Meat meta!
Well, I'm real glad you feel that way!! I think a lot of people get turned away on the face value of john/dean, which, granted - I lot of fics just go directly *for* the kink value of it, without taking into account the subtleties of the power dynamic, too.
Anyway! yay for thinky, interesting places!!
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