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and another thing...
While i've got my big fat mouth open, why don't I talk meta about another fanon characterisation I don't particularly agree with?
There seem to be a whole slew of fics out there that spend a considerable amount of time, effort and energy on having Dean AGNST about how Sam pulled the trigger in Asylum. Okay, so we were all expecting it to be one of those cheesy cliche moments where Deep Down Inside Sam will be able to overcome the evol possession and know not to shoot Dean, because Sam loves Dean, a'ight?
But that doesn't happen. Sam pulls the trigger, several times, and you know what that means? It means that the creators of the show were messing with you - making you think it was a cliche situation, when really it wasn't. If it was that cliche, Dean wouldn't have foiled the whole thing from the get-go by stalling Sam and giving him a gun that he unloaded as soon as 'Sam' called him and told him to come on down. The stories that go on at great length about how Dean is terribly emotionally wounded now that he knows how Sam Really Feels now are reading that situation like the cliche wasn't undermined, as if the cliche was still in tact.
Dudes, it's not.
And you know? That's a good thing. Because on the level of characterisation, it further cements their positions (especially Dean's) as not slaves to the text - to the cliche of the fictional diegesis. Yes, they are in a haunted asylum, and yes, each freak of the week plot is a total cliche-ridden rip off... but one of the things that makes Supernatural super-special is that their heroes are these floating signifiers - they move, effortlessly and unrestrictedly, through and between these different cliche-ridden existing texts, without being tied to any of them - not tied to the other characters, not tied to the traditional discursive rules of each of these texts.
So to a degree, it makes them more real/realistic. One of the things it took me quite a while to adjust to with the show was the seemingly slipshod way they solved each of the mysteries/vanquished the foes. There wasn't always a clear path, a simple solution with the steps mapped out. It was quite frequently patched together and amateur, but what I've come to understand is that to scoff at that as a weakness on the writers' part is missing the point - the point being that the Winchesters are the masters of the trade. They are doing it as it is done. Not as it is meant to be done.
And so Dean gives Sam an unloaded weapon, because he knows that Sam isn't a character in some cheesy horror film; and hell, I am absolutely positive that at least Dean if not Sam as well know that these threats are real, and aren't going to be overcome because the Winchesters are special. If Sam is possessed, that means that Sam is possessed - and thus can't be held accountable for his actions, and can't be expected to behave otherwise.
Right, so I strayed from the beaten path a bit there. How 'bout I turn what was meant to be my point into my second point: in keeping with the undermining-/subverting-cliche line of thought - the idea that Dean takes what Sam says to heart.
Because, get this - they're brothers. And they are human. Of course they're both going to be harbouring some unsavoury issues in there somewhere - if anyone reading this has absolutely no issues with any of their family, not a smidgeon of minutely negative emotion attached to your relationship with any of your relations - please, feel free tocast the first stone raise your hand.
No? I thought so. And I know, here's a good plot-device for a delightfully ham-fisted show - how's about Character A gets possessed/brain-zapped by a baddy into making his minutest of negative emotions towards Character B into EXTREME WRATH? that way, we get the characters to (ham-fistedly) reveal things about their dynamic that they wouldn't otherwise say! Because that's what the baddy did - magnified the negative emotions into rage. And Dean's not stupid. He's not going to be shocked or hurt that Sam has Issues (and come on, the issues he 'reveals' aren't exactly all that shocking or surprising), and he's a canny enough hunter that he knows, as I said above, to take the threat seriously - to know that this isn't actually Sam shooting him, it's a Sam-under-the-extreme-influence-of-an-extreme-baddy.
And I'll link Asylum to Skin, because they are complementary episodes in that respect - just as Sam is brain-zapped by the good 'ole doctor in Asylum for the gratuity of him spilling his magnified emotions; the skinwalker in Skin performs the same functions with Dean. It has Dean's thoughts, his memories, his personality - but it's tainted, twisted, magnified, unstable (i.e. just as Sam is in Asylum). People (in fic) don't have Sam angsting a lot about what the skinwalker said, though, because that wasn't Dean - but for all intents and purposes, what the skinwalker said was just as revealing of Dean's issues as brain-zapped Sam was of Sam's issues.
But the thing is - plot device of magnifying emotions to make them obvious to the audience aside - as I said above, they're brothers, family. And that means there is a degree of the unconditional love thing in there. That means sure, you shot me with rock salt when you were possessed and sure, your double took on your personality and tried to torture me to death; but families by default have Issues, and they keep on keeping on because that's the definition of family. In summary: goddamn, of course they have issues, but also goddamn, they'd be dead at this point if they didn't take all dealings with their 'playmates' with a grain of salt.
So yeah, I sure remember a whole lot of "I WISH I'D NEVER BEEN BORN"s toward the parents when I was a kid, and "ARGHHH, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU DEAD"s to my siblings - and we're not crying ourselves to sleep every night, let alone 30 seconds after the tantrum was over. So I'm not entirely convinced that Dean's going to be terribly, terribly wounded when Sam has a tantrum whilst holding a gun and being possessed.
There seem to be a whole slew of fics out there that spend a considerable amount of time, effort and energy on having Dean AGNST about how Sam pulled the trigger in Asylum. Okay, so we were all expecting it to be one of those cheesy cliche moments where Deep Down Inside Sam will be able to overcome the evol possession and know not to shoot Dean, because Sam loves Dean, a'ight?
But that doesn't happen. Sam pulls the trigger, several times, and you know what that means? It means that the creators of the show were messing with you - making you think it was a cliche situation, when really it wasn't. If it was that cliche, Dean wouldn't have foiled the whole thing from the get-go by stalling Sam and giving him a gun that he unloaded as soon as 'Sam' called him and told him to come on down. The stories that go on at great length about how Dean is terribly emotionally wounded now that he knows how Sam Really Feels now are reading that situation like the cliche wasn't undermined, as if the cliche was still in tact.
Dudes, it's not.
And you know? That's a good thing. Because on the level of characterisation, it further cements their positions (especially Dean's) as not slaves to the text - to the cliche of the fictional diegesis. Yes, they are in a haunted asylum, and yes, each freak of the week plot is a total cliche-ridden rip off... but one of the things that makes Supernatural super-special is that their heroes are these floating signifiers - they move, effortlessly and unrestrictedly, through and between these different cliche-ridden existing texts, without being tied to any of them - not tied to the other characters, not tied to the traditional discursive rules of each of these texts.
So to a degree, it makes them more real/realistic. One of the things it took me quite a while to adjust to with the show was the seemingly slipshod way they solved each of the mysteries/vanquished the foes. There wasn't always a clear path, a simple solution with the steps mapped out. It was quite frequently patched together and amateur, but what I've come to understand is that to scoff at that as a weakness on the writers' part is missing the point - the point being that the Winchesters are the masters of the trade. They are doing it as it is done. Not as it is meant to be done.
And so Dean gives Sam an unloaded weapon, because he knows that Sam isn't a character in some cheesy horror film; and hell, I am absolutely positive that at least Dean if not Sam as well know that these threats are real, and aren't going to be overcome because the Winchesters are special. If Sam is possessed, that means that Sam is possessed - and thus can't be held accountable for his actions, and can't be expected to behave otherwise.
Right, so I strayed from the beaten path a bit there. How 'bout I turn what was meant to be my point into my second point: in keeping with the undermining-/subverting-cliche line of thought - the idea that Dean takes what Sam says to heart.
Because, get this - they're brothers. And they are human. Of course they're both going to be harbouring some unsavoury issues in there somewhere - if anyone reading this has absolutely no issues with any of their family, not a smidgeon of minutely negative emotion attached to your relationship with any of your relations - please, feel free to
No? I thought so. And I know, here's a good plot-device for a delightfully ham-fisted show - how's about Character A gets possessed/brain-zapped by a baddy into making his minutest of negative emotions towards Character B into EXTREME WRATH? that way, we get the characters to (ham-fistedly) reveal things about their dynamic that they wouldn't otherwise say! Because that's what the baddy did - magnified the negative emotions into rage. And Dean's not stupid. He's not going to be shocked or hurt that Sam has Issues (and come on, the issues he 'reveals' aren't exactly all that shocking or surprising), and he's a canny enough hunter that he knows, as I said above, to take the threat seriously - to know that this isn't actually Sam shooting him, it's a Sam-under-the-extreme-influence-of-an-extreme-baddy.
And I'll link Asylum to Skin, because they are complementary episodes in that respect - just as Sam is brain-zapped by the good 'ole doctor in Asylum for the gratuity of him spilling his magnified emotions; the skinwalker in Skin performs the same functions with Dean. It has Dean's thoughts, his memories, his personality - but it's tainted, twisted, magnified, unstable (i.e. just as Sam is in Asylum). People (in fic) don't have Sam angsting a lot about what the skinwalker said, though, because that wasn't Dean - but for all intents and purposes, what the skinwalker said was just as revealing of Dean's issues as brain-zapped Sam was of Sam's issues.
But the thing is - plot device of magnifying emotions to make them obvious to the audience aside - as I said above, they're brothers, family. And that means there is a degree of the unconditional love thing in there. That means sure, you shot me with rock salt when you were possessed and sure, your double took on your personality and tried to torture me to death; but families by default have Issues, and they keep on keeping on because that's the definition of family. In summary: goddamn, of course they have issues, but also goddamn, they'd be dead at this point if they didn't take all dealings with their 'playmates' with a grain of salt.
So yeah, I sure remember a whole lot of "I WISH I'D NEVER BEEN BORN"s toward the parents when I was a kid, and "ARGHHH, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU DEAD"s to my siblings - and we're not crying ourselves to sleep every night, let alone 30 seconds after the tantrum was over. So I'm not entirely convinced that Dean's going to be terribly, terribly wounded when Sam has a tantrum whilst holding a gun and being possessed.
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It is very refreshing. Supernatural: it's the new Buffy.
Now I just have to write that essay about it all...
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The feel of it is all a bit different to me, despite their obvious similarities. I think it's mostly because SPN focuses on the brothers (and their father to a certain extent), while Buffy - and I know this is crazy because it's essentially about her - is more an ensemble story.
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Plus, I bet Sam and Dean would love a brooding vampire boyfriend! :D
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While I agree with most of what you said and I don't enjoy fics where Dean gets weepy over his brother hurting your feelings--I think canon supports the idea that Dean took some of what Sam said to heart. The episode leaves it ambiguous, but Dean does *not* accept Sam's apology at the end, and seems to think that Sam meant what he said. And I don't think that what Sam said would have meant as much to Dean if it was just Sam being all "I don't like you and you stink!", but Sam was specifically insulting their life and their family--surefire ways to get to Dean. And we've seen Dean cling to the idea of Sam staying with him and hunting him *so much* in canon that it's not a stretch to me to say that the Asylum argument probably stuck with him a while. (I think it was one of the main reasons for their mini-rift in Scarecrow, actually.) But then, in Something Wicked Sam basically takes back every insulting he said while possessed when he says that he understands why Dean is so faithful to their father and the mission. So, you know--in conclusion, they wuv each other. *g*
(Also yes to all that stuff about subverting the cliche--it's what makes this show so very enjoyable to me, beyond the brother love.)
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like, it becomes more and more obvious that Dean is not in fact a badass extraordinaire, but actually quite broken. There are instances in the canon which suggest that Dean's so keen to save everyone else's life because they're worth more than his own - like in Faith (which was on tele here last night, woot), how he outright says that cancer!girl deserves life a lot more than he does. which is okay, yay, Dean isn't vain, but dude - how many lives has Dean saved? how much good has he done? And like in Nightmare - the whole "you'll have to shoot me first" with no hesitation... not thinking of the consequences. I don't think Dean's necessarily convinced that Sam needs him as much as he needs Sam (and Sam's not really helping on that front).
And i freaking LOVE that Sam says that in Something Wicked - I love it so hard. The fact that Sam does see and acknowledge that opening up a whole new facet to the text, that takes it that step further away from stereotype/cliche.
but anyway, i'm rambling.
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You just summed up everything I've been trying to tell my friends and fellow Supernatural fans since Skin and Asylum came out over here (Australia). That was just...yes. [nods] May I friend you? Coz, yeah. You got it. [dances the happy dance]
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May I please friend you?
Just yes and word to every.single.piece.of.meta you've done and you even did a s2 trailer manipped like I did for sam and dean a while back.
You're my new best friend.
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PS thanks for submitting a recording for the podcast!!