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Y'think?

In other news, here's a question: When it comes to the differences in spelling across different cultures' use of English (US English vs. British English, etc), especially on a global publishing field such as the internet, should the fanfic writer:

- Use their native culture's version of English OR
- Use the version of English native to the original text or character?

I can see a case for it in first-person stories (personally, I'd get a kick out of writing it with the spelling the character would use), but what about when it's third person? Of course, there needs to be consistency across a story, so if you're saying organise you shouldn't be saying color. Though it'd be interesting to see different cultural spellings for dialogue and narrative.

As an example (or two):
- Harry Potter fanfic authors should never 'drop-the-U'.
- John Winchester organizes (not organises) his life around vengeance.

And yep, this is in response to a beta I just got back (*waves* hoo boy, it's been so many years since I've had a proper beta reader, it's kind of scary!). I'm intrigued as to what other folk think about this.

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I've never really been sure about this one.

In text-based fandoms like Harry Potter then yes, I think anything written should be consistent with the original spelling (but then again, I'd assume the American publications of those novels have American spelling so they could argue a case for using American spelling in fanfic, even if HP is set in the UK).

My main fandom is British, so I don't really have much of a problem with spelling, but I have always pondered. Although I don't do it myself, I suppose in third-person one should still use the spelling consistent with the character. Although people already colour dialogue to suggest different accents and speech patterns, so why not spelling as well?

.. Yeah, so I pretty much just repeated what you said.

It is interesting to ponder, though!

I always write colour instead of color and so on, and I always type organises instead of organizes, but word automatically changes it, which irritates the hell out of me. I've had betaed strories come back with people suggesting that I take out the Canadian/English spellings of things, to flow better with the tone of the fandom, but I'm really very territorial (for lack of a better word) about that extra 'u' and I won't change it. I spell the way I spell (and so does everyone else), and I stick to that.

That said, I don't find it annoying when other people spell without the u or with a z instead of an s. I don't find it affects the flow of the story at all.

I go for making the characters American (or whatever) and not giving a toss about the author.

So, because I tend to write tight third, even the narrative should be in American phraseology - store instead of shop; gas instead of petrol - but I stick with my own spelling.

Oh, I totally agree with the cultural artifacts and dialect. There was one example that's always stuck with me in the lotrips fandom: Dominic Monaghan's mom giving him a quarter when he was a kid. Dom is British and spent his early years in Germany, I believe. That's just inaccuracy.

But whether Dom's hair was the colour of straw or the color of straw is something else entirely ;)

Though, that's interesting... where does this discussion fit with RP fandoms?

Heh. At the mention of Dom Monaghan, gmail threw up a load of adverts for Orlando Bloom-related paraphernalia.

And I'd say the spelling issues stay exactly the same in RP fandoms but I can't figure out why.

I think it boils down to the fact that the author is simply the one telling the story. They aren't actually a part of it, so I really don't care what spelling they use. Well, as long as the spelling is accurate for somewhere. Otherwise it's just sloppy.

Vshendria and I went back and forth on this quite a bit when I first starting beta-ing Borderlines. She would use Canadian spellings, I would correct them, she would change them back. But only sometimes. And I would change them only sometimes. So there was quite a bit of inconsistency at the beginning. And I sometimes didn't know when there was an actual misspelling or typo from when it was just Canadian/US differences. So we eventually settled on it being what it truly was, her story, and thus, her spellings would hold. But the story is a story taking place in the US, so the phrasings and such I still change to US. We just don't have electric kettles in the US so she can't have Sasha going around plugging in kettles. That sort of thing. So it is a US story, written by a Canadian author who uses Canadian spellings for US vocabulary for everyday stuff.

Just try using the word "gotten" in a Blakes7 story and see how far it gets you.

FWIW, in Britain the first Harry Potter book is "...and the Philospher's Stone" and in the US it's "...and the Sorcerer's Stone."

Whenever there's a debate about how important it is that grammar and spelling be correct, I always have a mental reservation that "correct" is a regional matter.

Hanrobi: well, we DO have electric kettles in the US, they just aren't a cultural imperative.

I grant the electric kettle point; they are around, they just aren't very common. In fact, I've never seen one. And I just love the Harry Potter title thingy. Years ago I was in Canada for several months and my sister asked me to get the book for her from there since she wanted it with the original title. Apparently, the US publishers thought that the american public would never buy a book that had the word "philosopher" in the title. And since i am a philosopher by profession, I find this really funny. But when I am teaching my classes and needing to explain what a philosopher's stone is in terms of alchemy, having the whole Harry Potter title thing makes it easier for the class to understand.

And of course I never noticed any of what you mentioned above in Borderlines because I'm Canadian. And I have an electric kettle. Hee.

What I can say is that it generally makes it obvious when you see "grey" or "color" to know the author is American. And the use of the word "sat" quite often indicates a UK author. Especially "sat" - I always find that a dead giveaway.

I've been curious about this myself, as an Aussie writing in SPN fandom. I'm used to the vernacular, since a lot of the book/movie culture I inhale is American, so that's not a problem. But I was wondering whether I should change my spelling also. I haven't done so to date, but then, I've mostly posted drabbles and drabble sets.

I might poll some peeps and see what they think/feel about it, as I'm wondering if it's a turn-off, or if it throws people out of the story at all. That would be my main concern.

Well, as someone in HP fandom recced a story of mine with the caveat that it was good in spite of "the author's relentlessly American diction" I have to say that the spelling doesn't bother me, as long as it's consistent - I always spelled things the American way regardless of whether I was writing from the POV of a Brit or Canadian or Aussie or whatever.

And as an American, I will probably never get the right rhythm for British (or other) speech, but I do try to get the slang right, and also the terms that are different (jumper for sweater, flat for apartment, etc.), though there are some slang terms I've used for fic-writing that I've just never got used to, and I always feel awkward using them. Otoh, as you can see from that sentence, I've kind of adopted the "got" instead of "gotten" thing and now have to think about it sometimes.

Of course, I also write quite a bit in Firefly, which has its own linguistic anomalies, and I find myself sometimes letting them slip into fandoms where they don't belong.

Anyway, while I can be jarred out of a story by inappropriate Americanisms or Britishisms (depending on the fandom), I find that as long as the characters feel in character and true to themselves, I'm probably not going to hold minor mistakes against the author.

I always at least attempt to stick to the cultural background of the character that is the main POV. To me, it wouldn't do to have Dom as the main POV and have him use American terms or spellings. When I read someone else's fic and it's from Elijah's POV, but the author uses a very British phrase like, "Dom was stood against the wall," it takes me right out of the fic because an American would never use that phrase! But it wouldn't bother me at all if it was from Dom's POV.

I meant all this in terms of third person narrative, though I didn't specify that. It becomes even more important if it's first person!

Being at least one of the ones who thwapped your for this *g*, in general, I tend to look for the ones that leap out at me...i.e., colour does, organise doesn't, and I think that has much to down with how many letters are in the word as anything. One of my sub-fields of study a zillion years ago was english lit - so the actual spellings don't throw me (and often words don't either -- i.e. I know that jumper/sweater are the same thing if the author is a Brit.)

I think, in this case, part of what actually made it stand out as well was the actual geographic setting for the story -- there's a weird mind set of expectations for rural areas that I probably wouldn't have if the story were set in say NY or LA or any large metro area if that makes sense.

And maybe more pertinent to the point would be the fact that had you not used those spellings, nothing else in the text would have indicated to me that you weren't from the USA, so having cleared all other cultural translations, it seems an odd choice not to clear those as well.

Okay, your last paras kind of convince me there, heh :)

When I saw the corrections I automatically felt a bit affronted (like, "that's not incorrect!") which I think I can partially trace back to raging at autocorrect for putting in Zs where I don't want them BECAUSE I NEED CONSISTENCY AND CULTURAL ACCURACY FOR MY ACADEMIC PIECES, DAMMIT!

But yep, you convinced me. Thank you, ma'am :)

Bwah! I talk therefore I think! Although seriously, spelling as such doesn't IMO, lessen the actual impact of your story, and I wouldn't have been offended at all if you'd ignored it -- because you are right, it isn't incorrect, it's just different, alhtough as someone else mentioned, there are words hat dont' translate as well, like jumper, or boot, or biscuit.

Of course I have the same issue in my own country with people who truy to write atmsophere for the deep South without actually having exposed to anything more than stereotypes from media sources...I'm pretty sure most Americans wouldn't know the difference between UK English and Australian English.

Demons don't need panties.

A very good question! For me I've always used the spellings of the character whose viewpoint I'm in, whether it's in first or third person, whether it's roleplaying or RPS. If I don't the muse tends to correct me!!! (And I'll even go so far as to spellcheck the thing using whichever country's dictionary so I don't miss any.)

But I agree with the above that as long as the spellings are consistent and other details are culturally correct for the characters, it really doesn't matter if you use American or UK or what.

I always use the spelling and idioms of the POV character. Which is why it's sometimes a huge relief to write Elijah or Viggo! And I've co-written where there are two POV characters from different places, and find it actually helpful when each uses their native language (as it were). It subtly highlights the cultural differences which characters would notice more because they'd hear the accents.

I'm not bothered by an author using colour instead of color or organise instead of organize, etc. as long as the dialect for a lack of better word, is correct. There is hardly anything that pulls me out of a Supernatural fic quicker than telly instead of TV, boot instead of trunk, jumper instead of sweater, etc. I would imagine the same is true, just in the reverse, for a Harry Potter fic reader.

Spelling, I don't care about. I will continue to spell british in any fic I write because frankly, that's how I spell and there is very little difference between how a word sounds and how it is spelt when it comes to things like colour/color etc.

Terminology however, must be suitable for the fandom. The SPN boys are not going to stop for petrol, they'll stop for gas and HP doesn't flip a quarter to pick something, so I try to write for the area/characters and rely on my betareaders to pick up anything I miss.

if the text is originally British English, then yes, the text should be written in Brittish English. It's not only the "drop-the-U" that's important. You might want to use trousers instead of pants, except you mean the underwear, and it's "bangers" not sausages, someone is an "arse" not an ass, you're "barmy" not just plain crazy, and so on and so on. I think it's especially important to use the right English especially in direct speech, when a character talks.

In the Supernatural fandom I try to write American English. I pride myself to be able to switch between the two, but of course there are fuck ups. (For a while, I played a British and an American character in the same RPG - that was fun. ;-))

I'm not a native speaker and I can switch between both, so I really don't see no reason why an American or Brit shouldn't learn how to spell/say something in "the other English".

apparently I can't spell "British", though. *giggle*

Oh, man. I've been fighting this fight ever since I left the States for other lands academically, especially the creative writing field. My stance is that I cannot rely on myself to consistently use British spelling, and therefore I won't even when writing about Canadian Lit or setting a story in England. What my editors decide is up to them, though I've noticed that they generally retain my spellings.

Terminology, slang, sentence structure etc, should be American.

I'm telling a story about American characters. This is what they said, this is what they did etc, those points should be accurate.
Those points almost stand out - if I was talking to someone about travelling in the states, then I probably would mention that I stopped at a 7-11 or a grocery, because they don't call them 'dairies'! (Ok, they don't call them dairies anywhere else...) But - this is just a detail that reinforces where I was travelling (culture shock!). If I was repeating a funny comment I heard, I might even attempt (and botch) the accent. But I'd still be telling it in a NZ accent.
That's like the spelling - which I'm not so worried about. That's the story-teller.

Some differences are more than spelling, especially in slang - like, Arse is not equivalent to Ass, so is not a mere spelling difference. I think they are used in slightly different contexts. Arse is slightly cruder, more 'arsehole', whereas Ass is slightly more neutral, more just 'butt' - or nice ass.

But, hey

Retard! That wasn't finished.

Ok, where was I?

Ah...
Dialogue should most definately be right.

Oh, and if you have a beta who doesn't *mind* changing all the u's, s->z's etc, then, *shrugs*.
What the hell - all good, yeah?

My country officially uses British spelling, being a former colony and all, but I get so much off the American media that I tend to end up mixing both spelling forms without even realizing. It's not even a consistent mixing: for example, it's always 'color', but it's a tossup between 'grey' and 'gray'.

Worse than the spelling is the terminology, though: things like sidewalk and pavement, trunk and boot-- if it hadn't been pointed out to me I wouldn't have realized that one was an American term while the other was Brit. I see both forms often enough that I wantonly use either form as and when I feel like it. But it does fuck with narrative voice. Which is why I should get a beta. XD

It was so easy writing Harry Potter or LotR's fanfic! I miss how easy it was to hear the English voices, accents and slang.

Writing for a US fandom again is exhausting in comparison.

But I did Americanize my stories by getting rid of the u's and changing the s's for z's. That's the easy part! It's getting all the other things right that's hard.

American's use wrenches, not spanners... who knew? And that's the problem - you can't know what you don't know. I guess an American beta reader is the answer.

Personally, I always say it's writer's choice. I use the anglicized spellings myself, as do most non-Americans - and I hate it when Americans don't recognize it as legitimate variant

arse/ass

this is my least favoUrite decision to make. because, to me, the words mean fundamentally different things. unless i'm trying hard to americaniSe a fic, i can not bring myself to write "ass". it's a frikking donkey, is what it is. however, the same cannot be said for

arsehole/asshole

and that's because i'd only ever use the term in dialogue, and to me it's an accent thing. if i want the speaker to be normal, i'll use "arsehole", but if i want them to be american they'll say "asshole". (sorry, americans)

but i'm never sure what to do when citing in my academic work. because americans (bitch, bitch) ALWAYS change other people's quotes into american spelling. and i want to change them all (back) into proper spelling (god, i'm coming up as a real colonial, huh?), or at least put [sic] after each "or" instead of "our" or "ize" instead of "ise". (valourise. valorize)

oh, i've talked enough. i should stop over-thinking things. i should get off my... um... you know, my bottom, and do some work.

god yes! i have big quoting anxiety when it comes to cultural english spellings. and fucking MS Word doesn't help, with its autocorrect!!! I'm a bit paranoid right now about the idea that i might have to go back through my thesis and remove all the Zs (except for where they occur in quotes).

blah blah blah. I use 'ass' a fair bit (in my general speech), but tend to think of it as an adopted americanism rather than a replacement for 'arse'. (Same way i say 'dude' when i mean 'dude', not when i mean 'mate').

ha! i just replied to your comment on my lj. and even mentioned 'dude', dude.

heh! i can't stand it when i'm using a computer that doesn't have my additions to the dictionary, and has autocorrect still on. gr.

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