Everybody Loves A Homerotic Bond In The Trenches

[hope]

There's been a lot of speculation around about John's relationship to Ellen and Jo; namely, a lot of people are thinking that Jo is John's illegitimate daughter. I have to admit I don't particularly agree with that interpretation, for a number of reasons.

- Timing. Jo is what, no younger than about 19? That would mean that about three, four years after Mary's death John would be sexing Ellen. I kind of have mixed views about how much sexing John would have done after Mary's death, even *that* long after, though I'm not ruling it out entirely. However, this would make Jo considerably younger than Dean, and... not sure if they'd do that. It depends on where the creators take that 'relationship'.

- My impression of the Winchester family is that it's a pretty self-contained bastion. Its integrity is based on its hermetic nature - it's All About Them. their vigilante logic is all based on the family, not the greater good, John is clearly still obsessed with his wife 20 years after her death, etc etc. In other words, I'm not sure that the show would undermine the construction of their family by introducing illegitimate children (be they demonspawn!Sam or Jo) etc - i.e. Winchesters who aren't entirely Winchesters. Because that's what the essence of the show is about. People who are Entirely Winchesters. (Then again, I wouldn't put it past Kripke & co to undermine it deliberately to fuck things up. But i think it's more likely that they'd introduce that *potential*, make the characters deal with it, the reveal that it isn't true (demons lie/manipulate/etc) - Think Veronica & Keith Mars and the paternity test, hey?)

- The construction of Ellen and Jo as parallell to John and Dean. Ellen and John are reflections of each other (whilst maintaining their own characterisation, OMG SHOW I LOVE YOU), they're not complementary components. Mary was John's complementary component, Dean is Sam's (Dean and Sam are not reflections of each other).

WHICH LEADS TO MY SUBJECT LINE. Ellen's complementary component. (and here's where my thoughts go all meandering...)

Jo is very fair. This is another thing that makes me think she's not John's child; Ellen isn't that fair herself. Sure, if Mary Winchester had impregnated Ellen I could see Jo being the result, but John? even with blonde!mary, his children are reasonably dark (you're dark) in colouring (though, jo does have awesome dark eyes).

So, that made me think that heh, Jo's father was probably blond. So, John and Ellen both had blond(e) spouses. Further complementary + reflection stuff, there. And, um, Jo's father was also a hunter, and is also dead.

Then my brain got all excited. When did John meet/know Ellen? was it before or after her husband died? Is it quite possible that - gasp - John hunted with Ellen's husband? aka the blond, male, Mary-reflection? Then I got all excited in my pants, so to speak. Ellen's family is a varied reflection of the Winchesters, with genders inverted. Maybe adultery isn't your thing, but the thought of John off hunting and fucking with a male version of Mary takes me to a very happy place. Brothers/lovers in arms (a la wincest, even).

Also, John angst, because of course Jo's father DIES at some point. And maybe, she speculated with further glee into the 'verse she's entirely creating out of thin air, MAYBE Mr.Ellen's death is in direct relation to John (hah, Caleb, Jim, etc...), maybe John feels responsible, maybe that's the source of his self-enforced alienation from Ellen. MAYBE it was one big love triangle thing. MAYBE.

And man, I want to write that whole damn fic, now. Epicly so. Only, we've had what - ONE episode with Ellen's family? No doubt I would be jossed before the end of the season. Still, see above comment about being happy in my pants.


As a kind of unrelated aside, all the talk and excitement over the Dean/Ellen pairing makes me cackle with glee, too. Because as I said, Ellen is John's counterpart. So to me, these people are getting all squeeful about John/Dean by proxy.

Also, on the flipside of that coin, how do people feel about Ellen/Jo?

Comments

[shehasathree]

Sure, if Mary Winchester had impregnated Ellen I could see Jo being the result
exactly :D

hm. proxy. proxxxy.

[hope]

I like proxxxy.

Also, fempreg. *g*

[shehasathree]

fempreg!

[squee1123.livejournal.com]

i'm kinda meh on the whole dean/ellen, ellen/jo front. i'd read it but it doesnt quite do it for me, i guess.

i love th emeta in this fandom. its so very smart. it makes me feel smart by comparison.

[hope]

Yea verily, I'm not all that pinged by het narratives, and haven't seen enough of Ellen and Jo to see much subtext between them.

yay meta :)

[teffy.livejournal.com]

Ellen's family is a varied reflection of the Winchesters, with genders inverted. Maybe adultery isn't your thing, but the thought of John off hunting and fucking with a male version of Mary takes me to a very happy place...

MAYBE Mr.Ellen's death is in direct relation to John (hah, Caleb, Jim, etc...), maybe John feels responsible, maybe that's the source of his self-enforced alienation from Ellen...

Happy. In. My. Pants.

Yeah.

[hope]

I am friending you now, so that we can more conveniently share our Happiness In Pants in future. :)

Oh, I am SO tempted to write this. NO TIME!

[teffy.livejournal.com]

Yay!! We'll be happy, our pants'll be happy, and all shall be right with the world. Amen.

OMG, I know! Imagine the possibilities based on THE PRETTY factor alone. O_O

[kitsune-red.livejournal.com]

I'm just curious.. you think that heterosexual sex - John with another woman, invalidates his commitment to Mary (it's something you can't see him doing.) But that homosexual sex does not? (John/Mr. Ellen makes you happy in your pants.)

I'm not challenging you, I have no challenging tone. I'm just curious. :)


(Dean and Sam are not reflections of each other).

I think they very much are! That they are, in a way, shadow-images of each other. The other's "own unsuspected self."


I was actually thinking briefly about John/Mr. Ellen or John/Ellen/Mr. Ellen or a possible love triangle thing just this very day. Quelle chance. Please write eeet.


all the talk and excitement over the Dean/Ellen pairing

There is talk and excitement? How joyful. I like the pairing. beeeecause.
these people are getting all squeeful about John/Dean by proxy.

yes. :)


how do people feel about Ellen/Jo?

Eh. Lukewarm. I think, as a parent and a woman and a daughter, that one cuts a little too close to home. I'd give it a go. If it's well-written, I'll pretty much give almost anything a go.


I do agree with you that making the Winchesters not be Winchesters would undermine the strength of the show. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but..

[kitsune-red.livejournal.com]

Although the thought of John impregnating a very young Ellen.. she'd be just about twenty years younger than him, right? And maybe she hadn't married Mr. Ellen yet, and there was sexual tension between all of them, and John couldn't very well fuck another man, so he staggers off with Ellen and there was straddling and there was drunken roughridin and oops. ohshitOOPS. And Ellen never was quite sure which one her baby's daddy was.

That makes me squish.

[hope]

Oooer. I think that one kinda makes ME squish, too!!

Why do you think Ellen would be so much younger? What do you estimate John's age at? Sure, she doesn't *look* like she's in her late 50s or whatever, but neither does JDM, hah.

I'm just curious.. you think that heterosexual sex - John with another woman, invalidates his commitment to Mary (it's something you can't see him doing.) But that homosexual sex does not? (John/Mr. Ellen makes you happy in your pants.)

Nah, I agree, this is an interesting point. Derry and I get into this on occassion. Like, Derry is obviously a slobbering Johnslash freak, but strongly believes John would be celibate following Mary's death.

For me, it's not so much a difference between gay and het relationships, it's a difference between fantext and canon.

Like, I have reservations with regards to how much John would have been interested in romantic relationships post-Mary in the canon, but this doesn't stop me from reading and writing stories where John gets laid by people who are male or female.

I don't know, it's kind of touchy. But I guess somewhere in there is my division between canon and fanon, not so much where I think that fanfiction is WRONG because that would NEVER happen in canon, and i'm just titilated by the sex in it, but more that... fanfic is an extrapolation of canon. At the start of this post where I talk about the possibility of John sexing Ellen, I'm talking more about where I speculate the show will take that.

The extension of John's characterisation in fanon obviously posits it as much more likely. I really don't think that the show will give John a gay history with Ellen's deceased husband, but I'm already pseudo-ficcing away on that potential element.

Essentially, I love John, and love getting him laid, and don't see that as OOC, but I have doubts as to how much sex he'll ever get in canon.

Wow, that was all over the place!

[jennifergearing.livejournal.com]

Just as a thing, going by Jo's diary (from what Mary's put on the relevant site), she's supposed to be 21, I believe.

[sharpest_rose.livejournal.com]

Yep, she's 21, and I think -- I'd have to double-check this, but going on memory -- there's a reference to 'Uncle John' working a case while Ellen's partner is still alive. Lemme look --- yep, John was a regular at the roadhouse over a year before Jo's dad died.

[hope]

See me keymash, now. I am going to be looking at the hunters' blogs soon, methinks. THESIS NOW.

[lea-ndra.livejournal.com]

I find it totally funny that I haven't seen a single Dean/Jo fic, but that several Dean/Ellen fics have poppped up on my f-list since last week. It makes me... happy, I guess. Resistance reading!!!

[kitsune-red.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't really get anything from the Dean and Jo interaction. She's not really his type, and he only seems to be flirting with her out of a kind of desperation than any real sexual attraction.

There's much more potential between him and Ellen -- triangulation of desire, or just a simple need to be comforted by someone who had a tenuous connection to John. Never even mind the whole Oedipal drama.

Dean/Jo just really felt flat to me. Maybe I'll change my mind once I see more of her..

[derryderrydown.livejournal.com]

Ellen/Jo squicks me. Partly because I am far more squickable when it comes to pairings with a woman but mostly because I want them to have a healthy relationship, dammit.

I have a mother who is always present, who is supportive and who has given up so much for my sister and me. So I see a mother doing that on screen and I accept it as normal. Whereas my father... Yeah. It's not desperately unusual for me to go five years without hearing from him, ten years without seeing him. I can never even be sure what country he's living in. So I see a father on screen who's dedicated and obviously loves his kids and I simply can't relate that to 'normal' paternal behaviour.

In simpler news, if I was wearing pants, John/Mr Ellen would make me happy in them.

[hope]

I just think there should be more slash with John.

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

the thought of John off hunting and fucking with a male version of Mary takes me to a very happy place

I'm following you right now.

all the talk and excitement over the Dean/Ellen pairing makes me cackle with glee, too. Because as I said, Ellen is John's counterpart. So to me, these people are getting all squeeful about John/Dean by proxy.

you couldn't have said it better :D

Jo is a bottle blonde, methinks, so she still could have dark genes in her ancestry...Dean is close to be ten years older than her, at least from the way she looks like, but I don't know how old canon!Jo is supposed to be. Jo as a half Winchester...the way Ellen tells Dean he'd have to ask John about why they fell apart (once again! LOL) is supsicious of major involvement; if it was only a hunting business issue, why the big secrecy?

Ellen is just great. I'd love to have more about her and Jo, as you say, in a sort of John and Dean dynamic.

Ellen/Dean? Great on-off couple. I suspect John did have something to do with Ellen's husband's death, and maybe offered Ellen some comfort sex.

Most of all, since Kripke admits to reading the boards, I'm pretty sure they keep their fingers on fandom's pulse and are keeping their options open, to see if Jo takes on or not with the fandom, and if she doesn't, well, off we go with Jo. jmnsho.

[hope]

yeah, i find myself more intrigued by ellen as well. she's more of my character type.

Man, I really need to read those hunters' blogs, now... though, i keep telling myself: ONE EPISODE. THEYVE BEEN IN ONE EPISODE. JUST HANG ON A BIT!

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

Also, I love reading these entries of yours. They are really entertaining. And hot. Now I see John as this ruthless bastard gentleman who can't help getting in the pants of some jailbait tough girl because he's got a stiffie for her boyfriend.
Uhm...:D I've got happy pants, too, I guess :)

Loved the clash and collisions of wills and brains on the terminology use, too, where clearly you're both on the same side, just using different pathways. jmho. :)

[hope]

bwahah! yes, the giant melting pot of comment threads. I am fond.

mary and i sharehouse together, and are always bickering about this. generally it doesn't lead to murdering the other during sleep, because we realise we're on 'the same side' - doesn't stop us from frustrating the other up the wazoo with terminology fussiness. le sigh!

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

oh, and Jo/Ellen?
Nah.
Not because they are both women, but because I didn't see the chemistry there. I didn't see much chemistry in jo, sadly. Or not yet anyway.

[jenish.livejournal.com]

I ... really, really want to read that 'verse. It's so shiny! It makes sense! It involves John slashed with fellow hunters, which makes my heart do a gleeful little jig! Etc.

Also, I agree with you on all counts re: family and paternity and Kripke's evil streak. Yes.

[hope]

there should be more slashing of john with other hunters, i hereby declare it so.