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OOF!
We are finally home from the con. We should have been back about 3 hours ago, but our train stopped just outside of Coventry and didn't start again until 2 hours later. Joy!
Anyhoo, have had a quick skim of the flist and seen very little about Jensen's rather interesting panel session this afternoon.
Indeed, there were interesting questions.
It was very easy to tell when a question made him uncomfortable, because there was facepalming. The more uncomfortable, the more facepalming. All the questions about Dean & the show made him very enthusiastic and excited. Questions like, "what do you think are your best and worst physical features?"* and "if you had to write a personals ad for yourself, what would it say?" resulted in moderate facepalming.
The question, "You said in the panel yesterday that you were very protective of Dean. What do you think of fanfiction?" made him practically crawl behind the chair he was facepalming so much.
I don't even remember his very brief answer about 'fanfiction' because he launched right into "some really imaginative/crazy [can't remember exact wording, but def wasn't positive] fans write something called Wincest..." (cue more facepalming). He did handle it quite well, though he was clearly very uncomfortable.
Of course, about fifteen minutes later, someone else asked a question that was something like: "is there gay subtext between Sam and Dean?" (I didn't quite hear it, just got the gist), which, personally, I think is quite a valid question!! But it was met with another anxious moan from the audience, and Jensen adamantly declaring (and facepalming) that a) THEY'RE BROTHERS! and b) Kripke knows about all the Wincest/gay stuff, and puts in these little 'jokes' to poke fun and show how ridiculous and outrageous that idea is.
(...clearly, that's working out for them.)
Anyway, Jensen said that he and Jared only found out about Wincest BECAUSE KIM MANNERS GAVE SOME TO THEM. I could not love Kim Manners any more, at this point. (I would kill to know what/who's story he gave them!)
I'm not sure how I feel about those questions. Well, I feel fine about the gay subtext question - I think it would be more of a problem if people thought that it was a problem to ask about gay subtext at a convention - given that it's common practice that people were asking about het love interests and dynamics on the show. But it did come at a time in that panel where Wincest was already at the front of everyone's minds.
The fanfiction question is a sticky one. Some fans are adamant that it was incredibly inappropriate, that it's something that's seen but not heard/admitted to (on either side). But the old practices are changing anyway, I think, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Yes, a lot of the practices of passing on etiquette is no longer present, but I think some of the 'rules' have - or should - become obsolete anyway.
The person that asked that question asked it of pretty much every guest at every panel; Alona Tal, upon being asked if she looked at websites/forums/etc, said she reads "everything. EVERYTHING." Nicki Aycox and Brooke Nevin seemed bemused, but relatively positive about support and imagination. Nicki had received fanfic about Meg in the mail from a fan, and had been blown away and utterly impressed by how awesome it was; Brooke suggested fans write episodes of the show themselves. Someone asked Alison Mack a question about the Clark/Lex and she very frankly said that the rescusitation scene in the pilot drew in a huge fanbase because of its homoeroticism - and she didn't seem to think anything was wrong with that. or with saying that.
I don't know. I think it's just as easy to find fanfiction as any fan website these days, and with TV producers becoming more connected with audiences and fans (and definitely seeing the benefit of that!), they're definitely less likely to just turn a blind eye to what the fans are doing and saying. And by 'they' I mean not only the actors (like Alona, who reads all the forums etc), but the producers and creators.
I think for me, my opinion on all of this is formed by my firm belief that fanfiction - including slash - isn't something that should be considered shameful.
I don't think that guests at conventions should be made uncomfortable by inappropriate questions. I think that if they are clearly uncomfortable, then questioners/audience/fans should back off.
But ideally, i'd like a world where asking about fanfiction doesn't make the guest - or the rest of the audience - uncomfortable. I really liked the way Nicki and Brooke dealt with the question; I didn't like the way I'm sure a lot of the audience held their breath and/or muttered to the person sitting next to them and/or shook their heads in disapproval.
I think the fact that the audience let out a big lascivious moan en masse when the girl at Jensen's panel asked about fanfiction only served to support his discomfort.
Basically, I think I want everyone to stop thinking that fanfiction, slash or no, is something to be ashamed of.
Especially with television texts, the boundaries of the characters are so open anyway, I don't think it is something that should invoke a concept of violation of those characters and who portrays them ('Dean' is written by a range of script writers, directed by a number of directors, has input from Jensen, is re-written by comics authors and novelists and whoever wrote the material on the official website...).
Anyway, it's late, and my brain surge upon walking home in the rain has subsided again.
All in all, a good weekend :)
* Answer to best & worse physical features question: Jensen facepalming, looking uncomfortable, then surreptitiously glancing down at his crotch. Then, when the crowd cheered, saying "well, yaknow, and worse would be... bow legs. An awful set of Texas bow legs."
Anyhoo, have had a quick skim of the flist and seen very little about Jensen's rather interesting panel session this afternoon.
Indeed, there were interesting questions.
It was very easy to tell when a question made him uncomfortable, because there was facepalming. The more uncomfortable, the more facepalming. All the questions about Dean & the show made him very enthusiastic and excited. Questions like, "what do you think are your best and worst physical features?"* and "if you had to write a personals ad for yourself, what would it say?" resulted in moderate facepalming.
The question, "You said in the panel yesterday that you were very protective of Dean. What do you think of fanfiction?" made him practically crawl behind the chair he was facepalming so much.
I don't even remember his very brief answer about 'fanfiction' because he launched right into "some really imaginative/crazy [can't remember exact wording, but def wasn't positive] fans write something called Wincest..." (cue more facepalming). He did handle it quite well, though he was clearly very uncomfortable.
Of course, about fifteen minutes later, someone else asked a question that was something like: "is there gay subtext between Sam and Dean?" (I didn't quite hear it, just got the gist), which, personally, I think is quite a valid question!! But it was met with another anxious moan from the audience, and Jensen adamantly declaring (and facepalming) that a) THEY'RE BROTHERS! and b) Kripke knows about all the Wincest/gay stuff, and puts in these little 'jokes' to poke fun and show how ridiculous and outrageous that idea is.
(...clearly, that's working out for them.)
Anyway, Jensen said that he and Jared only found out about Wincest BECAUSE KIM MANNERS GAVE SOME TO THEM. I could not love Kim Manners any more, at this point. (I would kill to know what/who's story he gave them!)
I'm not sure how I feel about those questions. Well, I feel fine about the gay subtext question - I think it would be more of a problem if people thought that it was a problem to ask about gay subtext at a convention - given that it's common practice that people were asking about het love interests and dynamics on the show. But it did come at a time in that panel where Wincest was already at the front of everyone's minds.
The fanfiction question is a sticky one. Some fans are adamant that it was incredibly inappropriate, that it's something that's seen but not heard/admitted to (on either side). But the old practices are changing anyway, I think, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Yes, a lot of the practices of passing on etiquette is no longer present, but I think some of the 'rules' have - or should - become obsolete anyway.
The person that asked that question asked it of pretty much every guest at every panel; Alona Tal, upon being asked if she looked at websites/forums/etc, said she reads "everything. EVERYTHING." Nicki Aycox and Brooke Nevin seemed bemused, but relatively positive about support and imagination. Nicki had received fanfic about Meg in the mail from a fan, and had been blown away and utterly impressed by how awesome it was; Brooke suggested fans write episodes of the show themselves. Someone asked Alison Mack a question about the Clark/Lex and she very frankly said that the rescusitation scene in the pilot drew in a huge fanbase because of its homoeroticism - and she didn't seem to think anything was wrong with that. or with saying that.
I don't know. I think it's just as easy to find fanfiction as any fan website these days, and with TV producers becoming more connected with audiences and fans (and definitely seeing the benefit of that!), they're definitely less likely to just turn a blind eye to what the fans are doing and saying. And by 'they' I mean not only the actors (like Alona, who reads all the forums etc), but the producers and creators.
I think for me, my opinion on all of this is formed by my firm belief that fanfiction - including slash - isn't something that should be considered shameful.
I don't think that guests at conventions should be made uncomfortable by inappropriate questions. I think that if they are clearly uncomfortable, then questioners/audience/fans should back off.
But ideally, i'd like a world where asking about fanfiction doesn't make the guest - or the rest of the audience - uncomfortable. I really liked the way Nicki and Brooke dealt with the question; I didn't like the way I'm sure a lot of the audience held their breath and/or muttered to the person sitting next to them and/or shook their heads in disapproval.
I think the fact that the audience let out a big lascivious moan en masse when the girl at Jensen's panel asked about fanfiction only served to support his discomfort.
Basically, I think I want everyone to stop thinking that fanfiction, slash or no, is something to be ashamed of.
Especially with television texts, the boundaries of the characters are so open anyway, I don't think it is something that should invoke a concept of violation of those characters and who portrays them ('Dean' is written by a range of script writers, directed by a number of directors, has input from Jensen, is re-written by comics authors and novelists and whoever wrote the material on the official website...).
Anyway, it's late, and my brain surge upon walking home in the rain has subsided again.
All in all, a good weekend :)
* Answer to best & worse physical features question: Jensen facepalming, looking uncomfortable, then surreptitiously glancing down at his crotch. Then, when the crowd cheered, saying "well, yaknow, and worse would be... bow legs. An awful set of Texas bow legs."
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However I was thrilled to hear that Jensen said "“Dean’s best moments are when he’s with his dad.” \o/
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I was thrilled also :D
As I said above, I agree - I don't think people should ask questions that make guests uncomfortable, no matter what they are. I do want fanfiction and that kind of fandom activity to be something that causes less discomfort - but I don't think that occurs by shoving something that makes the guest uncomfortable in their face.
(not that wincest was shoved in jensen's face, unless by kim manners! he brought the slash up on his own.)
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My thing with the fanfic questions is that I just think there should be some things are JUST within fandom. It's got nothing to do with slash or wincest or whatever, but really the show is their's and fanfic is the fans' and I think it's good to have that seperation because I think it allows for more imagination and freedom, not less.
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No shame or anything; just that it really has nothing to do with them as far as I'm concerned. My fantasies are about the characters, not the actors, and frankly I really don't care what they think about it. It's not written for them... [Now, RPS is an entirely different issue...wait, no, it actually isn't. The RPS I read is not about the *people* either but about characters drawn from their lives, so to speak...again, not for them but us.]
But thank you for a great report!!!! Sounds like you're having a marvelous time.
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sure, they have their things and we have our things - i'm not saying that fandom should become mainstream, but that it shouldn't have to be hidden or hushed or felt guilty/ashamed about.
And I think the convention setting is where the 'their stuff' and 'our stuff' collide, anyway - people were asking questions about 'their stuff' at the panel - like continuity, technical aspects of shooting, etc etc etc... things that don't necessarily concern us unless we want to dig around for them. I think it works the same the other way.
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But I really like what you're saying here, and I'm kind of hopeful that sometime you'll write up a big long cultural/media theory post. ;))
and damnit, but that facepalming action is kind of cute, heh.
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I am very anti-uncomfortable questions. I just hope that one day talking about creative fandom will NOT be an uncomfortable topic!
like, I'm sure if someone asked a question about the vidding competition that they were running to promote supernatural, he would have been all positive about it.
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She may have a point; if the writers are trying to poke fun at the whole idea of subtext and it's not working (the con questions possibly supporting that notion), what other measures might they feel compelled to take?
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I think that overall SPN's production is coming already from a slightly more grassroots, fannish base than SG1, so I have a bit more hope for the creators!
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I agree with you on the point that, considering the evolution of a relationship between TV shows and the audiences, the question about fanfiction shouldn't be shocking or found embarrassing. However, I do think there's a line, whereupon a person in question being objectified - Jensen in RPS or Jensen as Dean in Wincest, for example - perhaps shouldn't be addressed such a question. From my point of view, Alison Mack was talking about two fictional characters, Clark and Lex, and that's different from asking Jensen, who's admitted to feeling very protective of Dean.
Not to mention the whole 'incest' issue, which is quite separate from the fanfiction and slash debate, by being quite illegal pretty much everywhere in the world.
Having said all that, I do agree that with the progress of time, boards and forums and fanfiction will (and should) become more of a commonplace knowledge among the actors, and acknowledged as valid means of fan communication.
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And i disagree with you entirely on the objectification front! even with slash, i think fanfiction expresses a respect for and love of a character, something which Nicki Aycox & Brooke Nevin recognised & praised in their panels.
I also disagree with you on making incest an issue in this - though this is an age-old fandom debate! fanfiction and reality are two very separate things, and by and large fans recognise this. I think often production do not realise that fans recognise this. I think the more open and unashamed fans are about it, the more likely production will get a more accurate understanding of just what fanfiction is and does.
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*uses "dean/sam (eyefuck)" icon*
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To weigh in on the whole OMG-they-mentioned-fanfic! thing, I've never felt like fanfic was, as you say, some horrible little secret we should be properly ashamed of, no matter *what* is being written about -- it's not like fanfic writers invented incest, or something. What makes me a little squirmy about the whole thing is what you described -- the lascivious fangirl moan (great way of putting it) of anticipation. And it's not even that, either, except that it was so obviously making Jensen uncomfortable; I mean, some actors (i.e., Jared, probably) would take it all in stride, but this is a guy who even in regular, non-fangirl interviews looks like he's being tortured by fire ants.
But clearly, it hasn't, like damaged him for life, since Kim Manners, who actually KNOWS him, figured he could handle reading it. Which is hilarious and awesome.
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Most of the squirminess for me, yeah, was due to the fan reaction to the fact that someone asked about fanfiction (and not even Wincest! jensen brought that up himself).
And it had been asked in previous panels, with quite positive responses (where the audience managed to keep their moans to a minimum).
I did find myself wishing, as I was on my way home from the con, that Jared had been there. Jensen was clearly very shy and unsure of how to deal with a lot of the behaviour and questions of the fans. I'm sure that if Jared had been there too that discomfort would have been tempered with more humour, etc.
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See, this kind of thing, if true, really kind of irritates me. Dude. Your show has subtext. You, the writers, directors, and actors created it -- doesn't matter if it wasn't intentional, it's there, already. I can understand the desire to try to reinforce your own idea of what your story is about; but to micromanage your project in this way, seems like you're just shooting yourself in the foot, and wasting time that could be better spent focusing on, you know, your story. You just can't run around everywhere huffing and brandishing your red marker and shrieking, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN! Why must my art be so misunderstood!!!
Well, for one, because you've got two protagonists who act more like lovers than brothers, and it's not just one or two people who've interpreted it that way, but a significant portion of your audience. And if he wants to turn his project into a joke, that's his call. Or maybe he could just deal with it, and tell his story the way he wants it to be told, and let his audience do what they will with the result.
Even if it's meant less as a self-conscious and angry joke, and more of a shout-out -- still, you have to ask yourself, is this kind of thing ultimately hurting my story?
Anyway. It's a thought. I hope it makes sense despite my problems with expression. :)
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if he wants to turn his project into a joke, that's his call. Or maybe he could just deal with it, and tell his story the way he wants it to be told, and let his audience do what they will with the result.
Roadhouse stuff aside, I think Kripke seems to be leaning more towards this side of things - or at least production team folks like Kim Manners seem to be.
I was thinking about the gay subtext question, and JA's response to it, in relation to another question that was asked at the panel - someone asked whether Dean took more after John or Mary. JA's response to that was that Mary didn't really have any characterisation - She appeared very briefly, twice, and all she did was give "motherly looks" (that's pretty much his exact response, there).
That makes me think that folks on the production side of texts have a completely different concept of the text itself than the fans do, and a completely different relationship with it.
A couple of years ago I was friends with a girl who acted in Australian TV, and it was around the same time
JA's answer that Mary wasn't given a character kind of infers to me that his concept of the text doesn't extend out beyond exactly what's printed onto film. Similar with his "they're BROTHERS!" response to the gay subtext question - and his description of EK's response.
But it's almost like we're speaking a completely different language. The questioner wasn't asking JA, as an expert on Dean's character, whether Dean and Sam were fucking. She was asking about subtext and interpretation, which doesn't seem to be taken a lot into account by production!
Anyway, I hope THAT makes sense, hee.
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Thank you!
:D
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i've had quite a lot posts on my flist about this thing already, and I'm still just catching up. Honestly, I get really mad when people post that they are embarassed of fandom or whatever.
Firstly, the fanfic question wasn't even geared at wincest. He could've perfectly answered it by saying how he feels when fans write Dean, make him OOC or invent episodic fanfics or whatev. He went to the Wincest thing because it's an obvious association in everybody's mind, but he didn't have to. I sadly had to leave after that, so I didn't get the subtext question. Which I think was basically a mute question, because they're brothers. He's not gonna say there's subtext, and he's not gonna say Jared/Jensen chemistry is responsible for that or whatev. So why ask it?
Secondly, it makes me angry that people blame FANDOM for the Jensen Jumping and Wincest question (which wasn't even a wincest question). One crazy fan jumps him and suddenly fandom is something to be ashamed of? I'm part of fandom and claim to have a halfway sane mind so that I don't jump him, thanks. As did all the other 699 people there. /rant
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And yes, it is worrying when people assume 1 person is representative of the whole.
I reckon that overall, with 700 very friendly, lovely people there - his experiences of everyone he met would have been largely positive, even if the bad was frigging awful.
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Omg...bow legs, how cute. I love the way he shuffles. Like he's waddling. I kinda wish Jared has been there to defuse some of the tension. He would have made a joke out of the whole thing, I'm sure. ^---^
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And I agree again, if Jared were there it would have been a totally different dynamic, definitely :)
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I'm just scooting around gathering up Asylum memories (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=purplephoenix03&keyword=Asylum+Con+07&filter=all) to add to my own :)
And I have to agree about the fanfiction q - I think most of the audience were like, OMG SHE DIDN'T JUST ASK THAT *facepalm*
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He did answer the first question fine, but the groan to the second question re the subtext (which could possibly have been a little better phrased, but it's easy to see why it wasn't) made it a little cringy.
Both questions separatley were fine, but their proximity was uncomfortable. Mmh, yeah, I think that'll be my thoughts then.
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As we were discussing over dinner that night, i think a lot of the conflict over that panel was caused by the lack of moderation!
In a way, I'm surprised that Jensen & co didn't request a moderation of questions (as is fairly typical for US cons), considering all his other requirements of fan interactions, but then again - it was his first con! perhaps next time we'll see new policies in place...
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Basically, I think I want everyone to stop thinking that fanfiction, slash or no, is something to be ashamed of.
Hoho, that big moan could NOT have been good for Jensen's peace of mind. But hey, he's a big boy and he probably loves lesbian porn just like every other straight man I know....either way, I agree that guests shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable at cons, but fans have a right to ask about fanfic...we wanna know if they've gotten wise yet!
Do you ever wonder if your own fic has been read by someone connected to the show?
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Do you ever wonder if your own fic has been read by someone connected to the show?
who doesn't!
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What is the point of the exercise?
As far as I can figure out, it seems to be entirely about validation. Anti-slash, pro-slash--it doesn't matter. The person asking the question wants to hear that the actor agrees with his or her viewpoint. Presumably so the questioner can then be the Bringer of Truth back to fandom. (Which never works anyway, as the viewpoint that has been "invalidated" isn't going to go away, and the fans who hold that viewpoint will just respond how unimportant the actor's opinion on the issue . . . Fans, gotta love 'em. )
For my part, I don't regard "Wincest" as subtext--it comes under the heading of what I call "spackletext," and I would be seriously surprised if, indeed, as ggreenapple suggests, that "a significant portion" of his audience (his entire viewing audience, not just the portion that writes online fan fiction) interprets the two as lovers.