hope | (no subject)

So, people like my story! Yay!

Though, my half-baked theory that the more plot = the less comments seems... pretty correct, actually. Hahaha...haaah... <-- somewhat exhausted laughter because I heart feedback but omg writing porn is GRUELLING.

ETA: okay, writing the above makes me SO PARANOID because it's this THING again where if you talk about what it's like to receive feedback then you are being precious. And yet that site of engagement is such a complex one that I wish wish WISH fandom as a whole was more open to meta'ing and being frank about it (I know, I have said this before, but then I get - hah - paranoid, and lose my nerve and delete after all). But I am trying to be brave, and not think about being silently judged. CAN WE PLEASE, AS A COMMUNITY, JUST TALK ABOUT IT?

Ahem.

Anyway. Speaking of writing stuff, I am going to re-do the Nerdy PSA into a v.2, seeing as lots of people are still using it and I think I could tidy it up a bit and integrate a bunch of stuff left in the comments. If you have anything to add/weigh in on wrt accessibility and casual coding that isn't covered there, drop me a comment/PM/pigeon?

omg productivity!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Okay, teal deer warning.

And yet that site of engagement is such a complex one that I wish wish WISH fandom as a whole was more open to meta'ing and being frank about it

Amen to this. ALL of us want readers, and we want to hear their responses. But our reasons for reading and writing are so, so varied, and fandom is a social as well as a writerly space. I think we all make choices about how we present ourselves over and beyond the fic itself, and those can have as much of an effect on the response as the content of the fic. For some of us, this is pure playtime and entertainment, especially from the reading end -- the equivalent of fast food or a box of chocolates, and lord knows there is NOTHING wrong with that. I like my comfort porn as well as the next fangirl. But if that were all it were, I doubt that any of us would make the kind of investment in time and energy that we do.

Speaking for myself, I'm not a good test case as either reader or writer, but I take some lessons from the kind of feedback I get and give (and how I, and others, receive it). I started writing fanfic because I want to be a better writer, and because I'd written myself into a corner where I was scared to death to show my work to anyone except my late mentor. I started writing for Torchwood because I thought there were fantastic writers in this fandom, talking about things that interested me, who wrote stuff that broke my heart and made me laugh -- and because occasionally, the discussion about these things really, really spoke to me. I saw a way to talk to readers and writers, something I'd been lacking for five years, and I loved the peer aspect of it, too. I don't think what I write will ever be "popular," but getting any response is already over and beyond what I had, let alone the occasional person who's really interested in the how as well as the what.

That said, I'm not immune to the "quantity" syndrome, where we measure the value of response by number of comments -- which is based on the naive assumption that only the people who comment give a shit, and the equally naive idea that the better the story, the more comments it will garner. After a lot of internal struggle, I finally started putting LJtoys code on my posts, because I needed to have SOME idea if people were actually reading. And depending on length, rating, genre, etc., I've had cases where literally only one in a hundred readers commented. (Incidentally, I'd agree that the more plotty and long, the fewer the comments. Also, YANA in taking five months or more to write one story, and word word word that GOOD porn is gruelling.)

And you know something? I'm bad about commenting myself. I was really shy about this when I started a year ago, and I continue to struggle with it. I want my feedback to be something that's useful, something that shows the writer that I'm not only moved by what they've written but that I appreciate what it took to write it. I want to give as many openings for discussion as I can. And that's selfish, I think, because sometimes ANY comment is enough to encourage the writer. It's also very likely projection on my part. But the end result is that I often comment late (not that I think writers mind that) because I go away and think about it, and sometimes I don't get back to it. And it seldom occurs to me that that might hurt someone's feelings if they expect me to be among the regular commenters. (That's a whole 'nother can of worms: the unspoken contract with one's flisties around commenting.)

Then there's the whole issue of the short shelf life of fic and how rarely people comment on back catalogues. But I think I've stood on the soapbox for long enough here.

Edited 2010-01-28 14:47 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this (lolirony, discussion about commenting...) - I have been putting it off until I have a moment where I'm not distracted or exhausted :)

So yeah, yes to pretty much all of the above. It's those unspoken contracts and expectations that are the sites of turmoil, I think. They're just so volatile and subjective at any given moment.

Like, when I am thinking logically I consider hit counts and recs and bookmarks to be a measure of feedback as well. So some days I'm gleeful to see a story that's a year old is still at the top of my most-read list. But other days I feel crushed that 400 readers a month aren't leaving a single comment. Then yet again other days I find that immensely amusing.

And the reason for hits vs. comments divided by time multiplied by flistiness or popularity... I mean, you see trends, but it's basically impossible to measure or conjecture from.

So yeah, it's those sites of anxiety or shyness or expectation that are the most fascinating to me. I think there is a lot of entitlement issues (though I don't like to throw that word around) influencing things too. Like, I remember someone having an absolute tantrum and flaming this author's comments because she dared to have a visible hit counter on her story. I think the criticism of that was - how dare she stalk her readers and make them feel guilty for being visible to her even when they don't comment?

And, you know, the whole thing is very personal - which I think is why it is taboo to talk about. (The person who had the tantrum about the hit counter obviously took it very personally, as do the people who loathe LJtoys.) It's hard to talk about because as soon as I make a post about what it feels like to get comments, there's this connotation that I'm being precious about the comments I do/don't get, which leads to an assumption of passive-aggression. But because it comes across that way, it inspires guilt (the majority of the time, I think) in the readers - who feel compelled to then talk to the OP about why they do/don't leave comments. Which only serves to back up that assumption that the post is essentially the OP passive-aggressively saying, "why aren't you commenting on my stuff?"

Er, anyway.

You are totally one of the best commenters out there. I am always overjoyed to get a comment from you, they're the ones I go back to read again to give myself a buzz :)

Yes, this is a touchy touchy subject, and one where the "entitlement" button will very often be pushed, for better and for worse. But the less discussion there is around it, the more people will tend to lean on comments as the visible measure of response; and there will probably be at least some who condition their social actions (including how they read and comment) around building up a commenting base. Conversely, I've heard some of my flisties wonder aloud if the ONLY reason they get comments is because they have a big friends' list, and that people do feel more or less obliged. All very complex. I think Foxy's right to point out how many variables affect any given fic's reception.

I may be a little naive about this, but I figure if you want to try for a certain kind of dialogue within this framework, you gotta start by doing it yourself. And I have no more say over who reads and responds to my stuff than anyone else. But I do have some say about how I read and comment myself, and it's GREAT to hear that it counts for something. I'm glad my thinkies have some staying power! There are definitely times when I'm fine with not posting much and just want to comment and beta, because talking to stories can be just as rewarding as writing them -- at least for me.