hope | (no subject)

LOL! Just composed and then deleted, in case you were actually feeling very sad and sensitive, a tweet along the lines of bitch bitch bitch writing teh porns is hard bitch bitch bitch plotses gets no commentses

:P YES, THAT IS ME RIGHT NOW. I am trying not to be precious, because I have been efforting HARD to make the writing process the reward and not the response. And I do appreciate every comment. I DO.

But, you know? people talk a lot about leaving feedback, but the receiving of feedback is something that seems to be never meta'd about. Probably BECAUSE it's impossible to do without coming across as precious. Though the whole psychology of it is pretty complex and fascinating.

ANYWAY. WRITING TEH PORNS *IS* HARD.

je t'adore, m'dear.

:) <3

Pr0n is DIFFICULT AND SQUIRMY-MAKING TO WRITE. And also the only way to get wodges of comments. That said, the comments one gets on plotty stuff and gen stuff do tend to be a little more concritty, given NC17 tends to attract a slew of omg hawt and a plethora of tmi. Not that any feedback is bad. It's ALL LOVELY AND I NOM IT LIKE CAKE.

It would be really interesting to discuss the whole getting comments thing in a non-judgemental arena, because it often sounds like whining or bitching or precious, precious, princessing and it's not, or at least, not the stuff I'd be interested in discussing.

Yes! All of this. I am pondering on how to formulate such a post articulately in order to cover what I want to and head the derailing off at the pass...

heh, well, I like getting comments and I grumble to myself if I don't - I agree, I would like to discuss this more, but as I suspect all I'd manage to say is 'people should comment on MY things!' I'd not be much support to you! I do try to comment on everything I read (I'm hugely fannishly monogamous, which is why I haven't commented on your new story) but sometimes I just think 'yes, fine' and move on. And there we go, the discussion has already moved on to the giving of feedback!

Yeah, I think there's this sense of expectation imbued in the whole discussion of feedback, so it's inevitably derailed into "here is why i do/don't comment!", as well as the original assumption that the person is discussing in the first place as a passive-aggressive means to demand more/less comments *g*

It's all too personal to discuss even remotely objectively, isn't it?

Yes!

I suppose the real question is 'what is feedback for?' and as everyone has a different answer to that question the discussion is going to get off topic really quickly.

I personally like feedback to show that someone has read the story. If it's a short story, then 'lol, loved it' is absolutely fine. If I don't get any comments at all, I rather assume no one has read it, which is a bit disheartening!
Ideally, if it's something long that I've put a lot of time into, I would like con-crit or at least a 'this scene in particular worked/didn't work for me' even with no further info, but again, 'lol, loved it' is gratefully received.

"Though, my half-baked theory that the more plot = the less comments seems... pretty correct, actually. Hahaha...haaah... <-- somewhat exhausted laughter because I heart feedback but omg writing porn is GRUELLING."

gah, I hadn't even thought about this, but I think you are absolutely right. I'm still new enough to both the writing of the stuff and the community that I just go squee for any and all comments so hadn't even thought about beyond "comments! Shiny!" or you know... "no comments, :(" lol

and oh my gods thank you for saying writing porn is hard because it makes my head explode to do it, but I read your stuff and it comes across as effortless. And I knew already that it wasn't but it soothes something in my soul to know that I'm not crazy when I want to smash my head against the wall working on this stuff. - so... er.. thanks.

Oh fuck yeah, it's torturous. I feel like writing the first draft is like painfully dismantling the lifetime of social conditioning that's been grafted into my sense of shame/selfconsciousness. Along with all the anxieties about writing skilfully and originally piggy-backed on. Then the beta process is often the hardest part of all, having what you've blurted out scrutinised and criticised. Then posting - making it all public - is again anxiety-provoking.

Compared to gen fic, which usually has some plotty idea that I really like and feel accomplished over getting out so smoothly, and want other people to like too.

Why do we do this again?? *g*

I hear you.

I think the amount of commenting depends on the kind of writing and sometimes the length. For example, after a really smutastic piece, the best I might be able to manage is "Wow," or "Yeah.". In those cases, my heart is in the right place but it's usually redirected bloodflow away from brains and motor function so it's a bit of a challenge. Sometimes I think I should just wait and come back to it with the brain working.

In general, after a longer piece, even if I'm really enthusiastic about it, the task of going through and pointing out what I like seems daunting, and I'm lazy, and....

In the case of Underwood specifically, your summary said something like "desktop porn" which I mistakenly interpreted to mean that it was something appropriate to read at my desk. It most certainly was not. But once I realized that I had devote considerable energy to looking busy and getting that crazy grin off my face, and I may have neglected my readerly duty to comment. I loved it!

But I hear what you're saying about talking about feedback and talking about this thing we do. I'm relatively new to this, and I can only infer the meaning of "meta" from the few I've read, but I absolutely DO want to talk about it.

Um. You start.

*grins*

Thanks for this. I just peeked at the Nerdy PSA and it's great. I'm inexperienced enough that anything you do to update will be welcome news to me and will save lots of time and hair-pulling next time I decide to post.

Hahah! Desktop porn!

I've talked a bit about it all in the comments here, and got a lot more of my thoughts into order... perhaps I'll get the guts to make a proper post sometime soon.

Thanks for weighing in :)

I don't understand fandom in this. In any other area of your life a product of so much of you time and talent and energy would be expected to garner feedback and comments or at least acknowledgement. And you would not be vilified for wanting some recognition of your work.

OTOH I am often guilty of not commenting when I should. I rarely comment until I've reread a work; sometimes there is so much I want to say that it becomes overwhelming and I just offer a sliver of what I feel. Also, I'm at a point in my life when I am spending a lot of time driving carpools or waiting on carpool kids or waiting around during my son's Saxophone lessons (and Hebrew lessons and tennis games and...) much of my LJ reading is via my iPhone and commenting through a touchpad keyboard is a pain. Or, as is the case with Torchwood, I come to a fandom a little late and root around until I find the good fic and then gorge myself on your older works. I could comment on everything but then I feel like a stalker. Sigh.

I think you are an amazing writer and I get really excited when you post new fic and I will be better about telling you, and all the writers I enjoy, how much I appreciate your gifts, because that's what they are.

And I love Meta like whoa and think anyone who feels that you can't talk about issues surrounding creating and concrit and the like should go sit in a corner.

I think what causes the trouble in this case is ultimately that there's this particular economic framework we're trying to place over the exchange that occurs in fandom, and it really, REALLY doesn't fit for a million reasons. But it's totally pervasive, constantly throwing up uncertainty and unreasonable expectations... Because really, there are so many factors specific to each particular fandom, person and community, as well as the overall culture of fandom, that break that economic model.

I just wish we could all come around to seeing it for what it is and being less stressed out by what we expect it to be.

I'll be honest. I don't think there's a whole hell of a lot to talk about. In fact, by thinking that there's something to talk about make it seem like there's more to it, but there isn't. People like porn.

I'd agree except in my own experience it is definitely not just everybody loves porn. There's another factor or two that separates the porn I consider praise-worthy and the stuff I don't.

For example, in this fandom, there are characters I don't want to imagine with their clothes off, no matter what they're doing or who else might be naked with them.

I can enjoy plotty porn, very character study-ish porn, and PWP, but some porn is downright boring. So it can't just be a love of porn.

And you, amand_r, who wrote one of the most amazing stories I've ever read should see this. Anybody who read We Held Gold Dust in Our Hands and all they got out of it was that everybody had sex, would have really missed the boat.
Maybe it doesn't seem worth talking about because writing porn isn't that difficut for you. But take a look around. There's enough porn written badly that I'm convinced that talking about what works and why wouldn't be a waste of time.

Yeah, not even remotely what I meant.

So enlighten me.

There's nothing to talk about. I don't get what you think there is to talk about why porn gets more comments than gen.

Tt has nothing to do about the ease of writing. It has to do with the reader's end. And the readers are commenting on the porn. So...? I just don't get what the issue is.

The only exception I can think of is Copperbadge.

Conversely, I don't want you to think I'm blowing you off. I just don't think it's complicated. I think it also bears consideration that readership vs. commenting are two different issues.

Edited 2010-01-28 19:16 (UTC)

Um. I think I might be agreeing with you. Especially the notion that it's more about the reader's end.

Having been both reader and writer (although I don't write porn), I still find some mystery there and support angst/hope's plea to talk about it. Also totally support you in your lack of desire to talk about it.

The more I try to explain myself, the bigger deal I make of something that's not that big a deal. So I'll shut it now.

Peace.

Well, see I think we have this discussion a lot, and it's always the same. maybe everyone needs to host it in their lj, and that is more telling than anything else. Because we know the answers.

I am willing to bet the following: Hope's text is dense. Meaty. People are willing to wade through a lot to get to the porn, and that includes texts denser than they might read for plot, or texts that are shoddy and poorly done. and it's easy to leave a comment at the end of a porn piece that says, "that was hot!" There you go. That's why porn is a heavy hitter, and a lot fewer people are going to read Hope's gen--because they don't want to read thicker text. I dunno. It's like watching the best seller lists--who's on them? What do they write?

I think the problem that I have is that it's not that fandom isn't talking about it. There's no taboo. And it's not a criticism or sweeping generalisation about all fandom readers. It's just not that hard to fathom, and I don't think there's an aversion to talking about it.

So for me the discussion about the discussion and the need for it is more interesting than the thing about the gen vs. porn. Just like I'm interested in the rekindling of all major fandom discussions, and not the content of the discussions themselves.

I disagree that there's no taboo. I've definitely experienced negative and extreme reactions to talking about receiving feedback before, and sounded out that aspect frequently in more private spaces.

Really? I don't get that. I've never seen it myself.

I think maybe then what I an thinking is that I don't understand what question is being asked here. Because the question that I read as being asked doesn't feel like what you want to say.

Edited 2010-01-28 21:21 (UTC)

Yeah, I've not exactly put forward an articulate case in my ETA, I know. I think sometimes I forget that not everyone has been around on my LJ for years, and so when I pick up the thread of an ancient conversation and continue with the assumption that my flist has heard me talk about it before... yup.

In my case it was more that I misread what you intended, and yeah, I guess I'm not well, uhm, contexted int your dialogue here. I thought you were saying that fandom doesn't talk about the disparity of comments in gen vs. porn, and I was wondering why anyone thinks that's a mystery. The case of Nancy Drew and the Commenting Disparity is, I fear, something that is so multifaceted that I couldn't begin to pick it apart.

Oh! Yeah, I agree there's not a whole lot to talk about wrt people liking porn.

My "can we please talk about it" was supposed to be attached to "what it's like to receive feedback", which I suppose I didn't really make clear, sorry!

D'oh! That's a whole other kettle of fish!

I don't have that many fish!

Okay, teal deer warning.

And yet that site of engagement is such a complex one that I wish wish WISH fandom as a whole was more open to meta'ing and being frank about it

Amen to this. ALL of us want readers, and we want to hear their responses. But our reasons for reading and writing are so, so varied, and fandom is a social as well as a writerly space. I think we all make choices about how we present ourselves over and beyond the fic itself, and those can have as much of an effect on the response as the content of the fic. For some of us, this is pure playtime and entertainment, especially from the reading end -- the equivalent of fast food or a box of chocolates, and lord knows there is NOTHING wrong with that. I like my comfort porn as well as the next fangirl. But if that were all it were, I doubt that any of us would make the kind of investment in time and energy that we do.

Speaking for myself, I'm not a good test case as either reader or writer, but I take some lessons from the kind of feedback I get and give (and how I, and others, receive it). I started writing fanfic because I want to be a better writer, and because I'd written myself into a corner where I was scared to death to show my work to anyone except my late mentor. I started writing for Torchwood because I thought there were fantastic writers in this fandom, talking about things that interested me, who wrote stuff that broke my heart and made me laugh -- and because occasionally, the discussion about these things really, really spoke to me. I saw a way to talk to readers and writers, something I'd been lacking for five years, and I loved the peer aspect of it, too. I don't think what I write will ever be "popular," but getting any response is already over and beyond what I had, let alone the occasional person who's really interested in the how as well as the what.

That said, I'm not immune to the "quantity" syndrome, where we measure the value of response by number of comments -- which is based on the naive assumption that only the people who comment give a shit, and the equally naive idea that the better the story, the more comments it will garner. After a lot of internal struggle, I finally started putting LJtoys code on my posts, because I needed to have SOME idea if people were actually reading. And depending on length, rating, genre, etc., I've had cases where literally only one in a hundred readers commented. (Incidentally, I'd agree that the more plotty and long, the fewer the comments. Also, YANA in taking five months or more to write one story, and word word word that GOOD porn is gruelling.)

And you know something? I'm bad about commenting myself. I was really shy about this when I started a year ago, and I continue to struggle with it. I want my feedback to be something that's useful, something that shows the writer that I'm not only moved by what they've written but that I appreciate what it took to write it. I want to give as many openings for discussion as I can. And that's selfish, I think, because sometimes ANY comment is enough to encourage the writer. It's also very likely projection on my part. But the end result is that I often comment late (not that I think writers mind that) because I go away and think about it, and sometimes I don't get back to it. And it seldom occurs to me that that might hurt someone's feelings if they expect me to be among the regular commenters. (That's a whole 'nother can of worms: the unspoken contract with one's flisties around commenting.)

Then there's the whole issue of the short shelf life of fic and how rarely people comment on back catalogues. But I think I've stood on the soapbox for long enough here.

Edited 2010-01-28 14:47 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this (lolirony, discussion about commenting...) - I have been putting it off until I have a moment where I'm not distracted or exhausted :)

So yeah, yes to pretty much all of the above. It's those unspoken contracts and expectations that are the sites of turmoil, I think. They're just so volatile and subjective at any given moment.

Like, when I am thinking logically I consider hit counts and recs and bookmarks to be a measure of feedback as well. So some days I'm gleeful to see a story that's a year old is still at the top of my most-read list. But other days I feel crushed that 400 readers a month aren't leaving a single comment. Then yet again other days I find that immensely amusing.

And the reason for hits vs. comments divided by time multiplied by flistiness or popularity... I mean, you see trends, but it's basically impossible to measure or conjecture from.

So yeah, it's those sites of anxiety or shyness or expectation that are the most fascinating to me. I think there is a lot of entitlement issues (though I don't like to throw that word around) influencing things too. Like, I remember someone having an absolute tantrum and flaming this author's comments because she dared to have a visible hit counter on her story. I think the criticism of that was - how dare she stalk her readers and make them feel guilty for being visible to her even when they don't comment?

And, you know, the whole thing is very personal - which I think is why it is taboo to talk about. (The person who had the tantrum about the hit counter obviously took it very personally, as do the people who loathe LJtoys.) It's hard to talk about because as soon as I make a post about what it feels like to get comments, there's this connotation that I'm being precious about the comments I do/don't get, which leads to an assumption of passive-aggression. But because it comes across that way, it inspires guilt (the majority of the time, I think) in the readers - who feel compelled to then talk to the OP about why they do/don't leave comments. Which only serves to back up that assumption that the post is essentially the OP passive-aggressively saying, "why aren't you commenting on my stuff?"

Er, anyway.

You are totally one of the best commenters out there. I am always overjoyed to get a comment from you, they're the ones I go back to read again to give myself a buzz :)

Yes, this is a touchy touchy subject, and one where the "entitlement" button will very often be pushed, for better and for worse. But the less discussion there is around it, the more people will tend to lean on comments as the visible measure of response; and there will probably be at least some who condition their social actions (including how they read and comment) around building up a commenting base. Conversely, I've heard some of my flisties wonder aloud if the ONLY reason they get comments is because they have a big friends' list, and that people do feel more or less obliged. All very complex. I think Foxy's right to point out how many variables affect any given fic's reception.

I may be a little naive about this, but I figure if you want to try for a certain kind of dialogue within this framework, you gotta start by doing it yourself. And I have no more say over who reads and responds to my stuff than anyone else. But I do have some say about how I read and comment myself, and it's GREAT to hear that it counts for something. I'm glad my thinkies have some staying power! There are definitely times when I'm fine with not posting much and just want to comment and beta, because talking to stories can be just as rewarding as writing them -- at least for me.

I just read your story and damn, it's hot and good and tasteh.

Have you posted it on jackxianto? Lots of readers there.

Comment numbers are weird. Sometimes I'm fairly surprised if anyone likes something and sometimes I'm surprised few people like a story. There are just so many factors - the summary, porn content, time of day, what people are in the mood for reading that week, etc., but many many people read stories (and blogs and other content) and never comment at all.

One of my stories came up on twgenrefinders or twstoryfinder - one of those - and several people mentioned it or said they liked it, and they've never commented. :D So, you know, people do mem or like things and forget to tell you.

Sometimes I think that comments are like the weather. They depend entirely on atmospheric conditions. So yeah, one should be zen about it, but I doubt very much that any of us are, at bottom. One really good comment can make up for weeks of drought, though, there is that.

This is true.

There are a billion factors which affect which thing gets comments and which doesn't.

Even when it comes to porn. I think in some cases, people are shy about their kinks, for example. There are probably stories which a LOT of people read but don't comment on because of this -- they don't want to air their kinks. I don't care if people know what I think is uber hot, but some others may. In some cases, readers may feel the comment would come months or years after the last comment, so maybe they think the author has moved on. (And a lot of readers don't write fic, so may not realize how much writers squee over a random "that was hot!" :) ) On the other hand, when there are TONS of comments on something, a reader figures commenting is the thing you do on this story. And some people have social anxiety about commenting at all on stories when they haven't interacted with the person in other ways.

It's like getting your hair styled and colored. You walk out of the salon and you feel FABULOUS. But you go to work and maybe nobody comments. Maybe they're preoccupied or didn't notice or they think it's inappropriate to compliment people's appearance because the last person they said something to took it weird. But that doesn't mean your hair looks awful.
In short, comment numbers do not indicate a story's "value" or how well it may be written. The bestselling books on the NYT list are not necessarily the most awesome books, but you know that. :D

comment numbers do not indicate a story's "value" or how well it may be written.

Oh, absolutely. That's what kind of wants to make me talk about it more; the myriad of factors that all come together differently depending on the fandom/author/climate/whatever.

What I find kind of ironic is that when it comes to a couple of things you've used as examples above, the reason for not commenting is so... illogical, i suppose. Like, everyone knows that 90% of the time the author will love getting a comment, will love even MORE to know that someone's reading and enjoying it months later. So what's with the reluctance to comment months later? It's not like a topical issue blog post where the conversation has ceased/moved on.

And the kink thing, too - I mean, yeah, I totally get the self-consciousness of admitting kinks when it comes to responding to idfic. But I find it a bit ironic (in a different sort of way to the above, I know it's a different kind of dynamic) - that it's hard to admit to enjoying something to someone who's just *written* and publicly posted it. WTF, do you expect that they will judge you?

Anyway...

There was a post circulating months ago with all of the reasons people didn't comment -- they download stuff and read it on paper or on their iPhone, they're at work and don't want to log in, etc. And they may not feel obligated, either, if the writer has never commented on their stories, if they write them. And I have sort of a theory about comment numbers affecting comments.

THEN there's the archive effect: Put something on Teaspoon or AO3 and it's like a static webpage to most people. They'll read it but rarely comment at all.

There are so many good writers who don't get comments and become discouraged, and there are sometimes mediocre writers who receive lots of comments. There are too many factors.

I work in a field in which we measure these things, so I'm interested in the dynamics of lurking versus participation in the abstract. :D

Yeah, I remember that post.

For a while I decided to post things to my website and link back to LJ for comments, mainly because I weighed up statistics-capturing with the amount of comments I got - I kind of thought that well, seeing as I prob wouldn't get many comments anyway, at least on my website I can see how many people are visiting, not to mention reccing - where I can look up referrers.

*shrug*

I feel so conflicted about people who rec but don't comment. On the one hand I feel totally grateful to them for liking it enough to tell other people to read it. On the other hand, I feel angry at them for expending the effort on making a post but not replying to the actual story.

And don't even get me started about people who comment on recs telling the reccer how much they enjoyed the story, and not the actual author... *g*

They can't tell the author! The story has already been up for a few weeks, but the reccer just posted the rec now! :D

This is my unconvinced face. Everyone knows how awesome it is to receive comments, *especially* after time has passed!

I know! They're food!

But it's internet behaviour in general, as one finds with blog posts. I really do think it's often down to publish dates appearing on stories versus stories appearing to be in an undated archive.

It's easier to stop assigning weight to comment numbers than to worry too much about it, I think.

I will totally add you to my back-catalogue commenting project, if you're interested. Bearing in mind that it might be another six months before I get to it. (*is woefully behind...*)

Oooh, back-catalogue commenting project? Where you go back and comment on all the stuff you've liked? That sounds awesome. I might copy you on that, my delicious bookmarks make it easy to find everything again, and it's totally been long enough since I read most of them that it'll be like enjoying them for the first time all over again! :D

The way I've been doing it is to pick any fics the writers especially want comments for -- whether because they didn't get enough in the first go-round or because they want feedback on specific things -- and offer concrit or a synthetic overview or a kind of comparative view of the different fics. It's really up to the writer. I think it's helped me do better beta, and I've had great conversations with the writers along the way. Alas, though, I've been terribly slow about it -- I started last March and have only done about six of the twelve I initially promised, so unless I can pick up speed, it might be awhile. But I love doing it; there's a kind of thrill about looking at how someone writes in that kind of depth. Also, my flist is full of favorite writers, so it's not exactly a hardship. :)

Yep, it's fun to revisit old favorites, too. I spend a lot of time thinking about how stories have changed over the growth of the fandom. You'd probably get a big kick out of it.

Oh, that sounds awesome!! I'd love for you to do mine, and totally love the idea of doing it for someone else, too :D

I like that idea of arranging it with the author beforehand. There has been occasion when I've left a thinky comment, hoping to talk about it, and have not got a response from the author.

I specifically post at Wonderful World of MakeBelieve (WWOMB), an all-inclusive Fandom Archive for one reason. It lets me view the statistics on each posted story.

For example, at the present, the most read is the longest posted there, a multi-part Highlander story. With multiple crossovers, sex, and a cat as a major OFC. Seriously.

The second, another Highlander story, is fairly long, all about D/s play, sexy and plotty.

I have a virtual tie for third most read. Two are long Highlander movie AUs (one has absolutely NO sex in it). While the third is STIX, medium length, plotty and almost sexless. Of course, what's there is prime. Lalala

What I'm saying, is that in my experience there's no accounting for taste.

Oh, yes, most importantly, in over 2000 hits in 6 months, I've had FOUR people comment.

I no longer think about getting feedback. I write the story I want to read, and would like to share. I set it free, and watch my statistics. Of course, the more often you post at WWOMB, the more readers you attract to older stories. Readership goes up.

Feeback is wonderful, and I do love when it happens. But that was never why I wrote to begin with.

Um, sorry to have rambled all over your lj.

Yeah.

Renee

Yeah, I totally count statistics as part of the feedback I get on a story. Depending on my mood, what the ratio of hits:comments is gives me varying degrees of disappointment or amusement.

I don't think there's a rule that can be applied across the board - the patterns vary depending on the archive, the fandom, and the author's position in it. It's all pretty fascinating, if totally unpredictable *g*

Ramble away!

Glad you got what I meant.

Statistics are fun. Or funny.

Renee

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