To expand... At the beginning, I think he really had to prove to himself he wasn't crazy, that was he saw was true, which meant understanding what it was in the first place...and riding on that, his boys' safety, possibly and probably not for their sake's but his own (the only thing left to him) somewhat on the unconscious level.
Revenge came later, imo, once he knew he wasn't mad, once he knew there really was evil out there, and that it was purposeful, once he could finally identify IT as the one reason behind Mary's death and John's 'life as he knew it' destruction.
Justice came along with that, discovering that not only Evil existed, but he could do something about it, help other people (His voicemail in the Phantom ep specifically identify his being available for help/emergency..well, that or volunteering Dean for it ;).
All of the above? I think there would have been more than a few 'what if's' over the years, right along next to the knowledge that he could have done nothing even if he had been the one to check on Sammy. Justice for Mary who didn't deserve that death, revenge for his boys who missed out on their mother and after he found out there was a plan for Sammy, protecting those he hadn't lost yet. He's a complex Dude. =P
I don't follow Supernatural but for the pics and polls you post here, but when I see the phrase "redress his guilt" I can't help but imagine John dressing up his guilt in a flurry of snazzy dresses. His guilt looks like Dean, and the dress he settles on is a red satin number with a deep v neck.
Yeah, I guess that's possible but there really wasn't anything he could have done. However, if the secret includes that he had some part in her death/Sammy's powers, then I could really see him feeling guilty.
I just wrote a paper where I argued that the family arc in Supernatural is all about the ethic of abstract justice vs the ethic of care (a la Carol Gilligan). I argued that John was all about revenge and thus abstract justice, to the frequent neglect of the people still in his life...while Dean is all about the ethic of care, thus inhabiting a "normally" feminine position. He is so fucking cool that way. Dean is always saying he doesn't care about revenge, he just wants to protect his family. He "wastes" a bullet to save Sam, right? Meanwhile, John ultimately tries to convince Sam to shoot him in order to kill the demon. Hence I argued that the tension between these two ethics is fought out in Sam, who ultimately chooses the ethic of care (as well he should!).
But then of course in Ep. One this season, John did a complete about-face and gave up revenge...but was it really the ethic of care? No. He certainly wanted to care for his son, which is why it's so damn tragic. John always seems to fall back on the zero-sum masculinist logic. No matter how he tries to do the right thing, something has to be lost. "I give up A for B." It's really quite tragic and Dean understands this intuitively. Dean's response is that it is really a selfish gesture because it leaves the person on whose behalf John made his sacrifice having to live without that person, not to mention the guilt.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that any other parent wouldn't do the same as John. It was the ethic of abstract justice taken to its most noble and beautiful extreme: sacrifice, not just of one's life but their soul as well. (And frankly, on theological grounds I should think that if there was any kind of god in the story, he/she/it would have to intervene on the basis of that sacrifice.)
I have to say, as an ethical philosopher, Dean kicks major ass. He is an amazing example of how a child can grow up loving and admiring one person and yet become so different from them. But then he was placed in the position of caregiver from early on, wasn't he?
Hence I argued that the tension between these two ethics is fought out in Sam, who ultimately chooses the ethic of care (as well he should!).
that's brainy. i love that. very true.
but don't you think there should be a balance between the two? what is civilization but the balance between abstract masculine notions like justice, and the feminine glue of family and home?
and i don't mean that literally, that either of those qualities are exclusive to men or women -- but that they work together to form a whole. john is wonderful, because he carries the fire; dean is wonderful, because his whole world centers around love. i'm not sure sam has definitely chosen one side -- and, as you said earlier, as well he should.
on theological grounds I should think that if there was any kind of god in the story, he/she/it would have to intervene on the basis of that sacrifice.
just as a point of interest, john 15 says, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
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To expand...
At the beginning, I think he really had to prove to himself he wasn't crazy, that was he saw was true, which meant understanding what it was in the first place...and riding on that, his boys' safety, possibly and probably not for their sake's but his own (the only thing left to him) somewhat on the unconscious level.
Revenge came later, imo, once he knew he wasn't mad, once he knew there really was evil out there, and that it was purposeful, once he could finally identify IT as the one reason behind Mary's death and John's 'life as he knew it' destruction.
Justice came along with that, discovering that not only Evil existed, but he could do something about it, help other people (His voicemail in the Phantom ep specifically identify his being available for help/emergency..well, that or volunteering Dean for it ;).
Guilt came along with it all, I suppose.
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Yeah. What you said.
Protecting the boys. Protecting others. Having a purpose to life/doing work that means something. Seeking vengeance/redressing guilt.
And evolution from beginning to end across the years, in that order, IMO.
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I think there would have been more than a few 'what if's' over the years, right along next to the knowledge that he could have done nothing even if he had been the one to check on Sammy.
Justice for Mary who didn't deserve that death, revenge for his boys who missed out on their mother and after he found out there was a plan for Sammy, protecting those he hadn't lost yet.
He's a complex Dude. =P
*thinkyface*
I tickied "guilt" but I had to waffle about for a while.
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But then of course in Ep. One this season, John did a complete about-face and gave up revenge...but was it really the ethic of care? No. He certainly wanted to care for his son, which is why it's so damn tragic. John always seems to fall back on the zero-sum masculinist logic. No matter how he tries to do the right thing, something has to be lost. "I give up A for B." It's really quite tragic and Dean understands this intuitively. Dean's response is that it is really a selfish gesture because it leaves the person on whose behalf John made his sacrifice having to live without that person, not to mention the guilt.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that any other parent wouldn't do the same as John. It was the ethic of abstract justice taken to its most noble and beautiful extreme: sacrifice, not just of one's life but their soul as well. (And frankly, on theological grounds I should think that if there was any kind of god in the story, he/she/it would have to intervene on the basis of that sacrifice.)
I have to say, as an ethical philosopher, Dean kicks major ass. He is an amazing example of how a child can grow up loving and admiring one person and yet become so different from them. But then he was placed in the position of caregiver from early on, wasn't he?
God, I love him so.
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that's brainy. i love that. very true.
but don't you think there should be a balance between the two? what is civilization but the balance between abstract masculine notions like justice, and the feminine glue of family and home?
and i don't mean that literally, that either of those qualities are exclusive to men or women -- but that they work together to form a whole. john is wonderful, because he carries the fire; dean is wonderful, because his whole world centers around love. i'm not sure sam has definitely chosen one side -- and, as you said earlier, as well he should.
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re one mode gets assigned to men and the other to women, is out of balance.
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just as a point of interest, john 15 says, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
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does it show that i've never seen this show?
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